How does Proton's Design Department Works?

[Supra_Fanatics]

Before I reply to a few posts. I would like to say that, Designers may be the cause and usually may not be the cause for ugly designs.

Seriously designers most of the time, me as a designer as well but not car designer are not able to come up with a design base on what we deem as Perfect/Excellent, Nice and the most suitable design for something most of the time.

Most of the time we are requested to come up with a design 1st. Then, we would send out our designs for approval, be it Art Director or the top management people like Manager, Vice Presidents and etcs. Those big top Arses at the top for their approval.

Time and time again, we are usually force to follow orders and come up with a design that seems ugly to us but end up getting approved by the Top Managements. We can only give them our professional advice but we can't do anything if our advices were not taken.

So, in short, designers are not totally the one to blame, wanna blame, blame the top managements. Even if u bring in the Lotus designers or the designers from Ferraris or anything, the final decision still in the hands of the top managements. So, wanna sack some people? sack the one who approved it.

@1:53:00
"It's got rear LED lights, I think you should applaud this one"
OMG WTF PLEASE GO DIE, the FIRST Perodua Myvi @ 2005 already had rear LED lights. Now is 2013.
"Now this is a feature you find on really expensive, or really new car"
WHERE DID THEY FIND THIS JOKER? I've got more car knowledge than this guy. Imported him over from Africa? He never seen a Myvi before?

EDIT: AGAIN, my intention is not to bash Proton, but I don't know what to say. I am just doing research and quoting Proton themselves.

Lots of cars in year 2005 already have LEDs That kinda of joke can be win its place in the 1st page of Malaysian Books of Records.

The 145bhp Satria Neo R3 Lotus Edition is a 25 unit limited run. 145bhp? For RM115k? And still no LSD? Really? Its just the marketing department banking on the name.

The current one doesn't.
PROTON Edar - Overview

From a design perspective, R3 designs/bodykit has been very good. They have even manage to make the Proton Savvy look less repulsive. The R3 brand, the livery, is all very good under Tengku Djan, but the marketing people, hoping the bang some quick cash decided to call every piece of rubbish R3 to con people.

The current Satria Neo R3 is not worthy of the name it carries.

The ORIGINAL Satria R3 was RM77,888, it had MOMO STEERING and RECARO seats, with all the R3 performance improvements.

Then, came the FIRE RED Satria Neo R3, at RM79,797, this is the version with 145bhp, but guess what? No MOMO, NO RECARO.

Then CURRENTLY, the conjob Satria Neo R3, at RM60,800 to RM64,250. This one, is just the original Satria Neo, with bodykits, 125bhp engine. And they dare slap a R3 logo to it.

Why am I highlighting this? Cause interior design is relevant to design as well. Proton is just skimping and skimping yet charging the same premium price. No more Momo steering, no more Recaro, but you pay the same premium over the standard car for less. Proton seems to think slapping a R3 logo on it is the same as slapping an Evo badge on a Lancer and you can charge people more money. Hello, people are not paying for the badge, as beautiful as it looks.

Which is why the only Proton I like is the Satria Neo, the design is original and the nicest among all protons. Maybe only suitable for me, cuz I'm not tall like u bro

Combining good design with sales success is just wrong..Ford F-150 are beautiful? Beetle? C2V?
It just need to be cheap, reliable and functional to get a good sales.

Good design helps...but not necessarily..

To me the Ford F150 is beautiful, try comparing with other 4x4/trucks like Hilux, Triton and etcs. It looks the best among them. Beetle? If u r talking about the 1st gen then no is ugly, but 2nd gen and current one aint qualified to be categorised as ugly car.

Way better design than proton cars for sure.

ugly cars dont sells well, but dont expect good looking cars to sell well...especially if its made by Proton..

go to Proton showroom and tells the sales agent that this Proton car (show that you interested) are damn ugly..everything else is OK...thus you're not buying it..our words might be spread..

Good looking cars sells better than ugly cars for sure especially when the price and quality are in the package as well. Vios design, especially the current one I would say is beautiful, the car is still using the same old engine and nothing much improve besides the design. It wins consumer's attention by its exterior and also interior design. I see less ugly cars on the road the nice cars on the road. Even the ugly Almera is not consider a lot on the road as well.

how many units will you buy for them to justify making this model/sending it into production?

make sense from a business point of view?

heck even satria neo auto is selling at a ratio of 3:1 compared to the manuals...
not forgetting those bullshit who rave about CFE/preve/suprima manual but then brought auto because the reason given is KL banyak jam laaa.....

cheh

Then it has proven that good designs helps on sales.

 

[kcng]

i'm more than happy to swap my autobox proton with manualbox

u are 1, great, but is it enough to sustain the business model?

Then it has proven that good designs helps on sales.

good design helps generate sales inquiries..... attract people to check out the product...
but the overall packaging is the one that is doing the sales pitch most...

 

[ixeo]

how many units will you buy for them to justify making this model/sending it into production?

make sense from a business point of view?

heck even satria neo auto is selling at a ratio of 3:1 compared to the manuals...
not forgetting those bullshit who rave about CFE/preve/suprima manual but then brought auto because the reason given is KL banyak jam laaa.....

cheh

You forgetting one very important point. How much operational losses will there be from parts warrantied, and labor resources to warranty every single Satria Neo Turbo with Punch VT3?

Sell less but make money, less operational losses from repair and warranty

OR

Sell more and make money, even more operational losses from repair and warranty and tarnish the brand name further (not that it matters).

You sell the auto 3:1, then the claim ratio of the auto also 3 in every 10 cars, cukup mati already. The Satria Neo is for the young, not for the keyboard warriors sitting at ZTH, cause come on, if we had hot hatch we'd be out driving and fetching hot minahs. Most of us here are stuck at home changing diapers, like TitanRev.

 

[stupidcar]

Well, I gotta give the EL lights on Suprima. Thats the only trend the can keep up with.
LEDs are wayyy outdated dy.

 

[kcng]

You forgetting one very important point. How much operational losses will there be from parts warrantied, and labor resources to warranty every single Satria Neo Turbo with Punch VT3?

Sell less but make money, less operational losses from repair and warranty

OR

Sell more and make money, even more operational losses from repair and warranty and tarnish the brand name further (not that it matters).

You sell the auto 3:1, then the claim ratio of the auto also 3 in every 10 cars, cukup mati already. The Satria Neo is for the young, not for the keyboard warriors sitting at ZTH, cause come on, if we had hot hatch we'd be out driving and fetching hot minahs. Most of us here are stuck at home changing diapers, like TitanRev.

sell less make more money?
how do u want to have economics of scale when u are selling so little?

who do u think will get a better bargain?
10 gearbox or 100 gearbox?

 

[ixeo]

sell less make more money?
how do u want to have economics of scale when u are selling so little?

who do u think will get a better bargain?
10 gearbox or 100 gearbox?

Going off topic, but I rather entertain you than the other guy who don't do apples to apples comparison.

Sigh, here we go.....(reason why APPLE is #1 and Nokia is dead)

1. Manual gearboxes are cheaper than the Punch VT3 (bear in mind we talking about Satria Neo TURBO here).
2. Manual gearboxes are bullet proof, the Punch VT3 isn't. MOST people who buy the Satria Neo are youngsters, or people who are "sporty" or "trendy". The VT3 is "capable" of a max torque of 215Nm, and the CFE engine throws out 205Nm. Sell some R3 exhaust systems, some ECU tuning by R3..and quickly you go beyond the capability of the VT3. That being said, we don't know how well the VT3 will respond to being driven hard. Plus a lot of people will modify the car with simple intake and exhaust mods. Which leads to...
3. More wear, more tear, more warranty claims for the "automatic" Satria Neo Turbo.

To summarize
Satria Neo Turbo Manual - less cost, sell same price, higher profit margin.
Satria Neo Turbo CVT - higher cost, sell higher? But higher warranty repair ratio, repair costs money which eats into your operational cost.

Plus I doubt anybody who wants a hot hatch wants CVT with it...

The reason why APPLE makes so much money is not because they sell more units. Nokia easily sells 3:1 mobile phones versus APPLE. Apple makes so much money because of operational income. You deduct the cost of goods, cost of operations and APPLE makes more profit margin than Nokia, despite Nokia selling more.

So, you don't need to sell more Satria Neo Turbo Manuals to profit. If you sell a lot of Satria Neo Turbo CVT - if you sell more, and those gearboxes drop like flies, you'll be busy repairing them which costs you both replacement gearboxes, and labor to install it. In the end you might make a loss on every car sold.

In the end if Satria Neo Turbo Manual operation income is 30%, and the Satria Neo Turbo CVT is 18% (costs more to manufacturer, costs more to warranty). Don't need to sell more, just sell enough.

As for the argument "but the automatic gearbox have yet to fail". Well, let's look at examples, shall we? VW's current Polo and Golf DSG gearboxes are faulty, Honda City's CVT attempts were a failure and they reverted to torque converters.

By going with manual, you reduce these problems and guarantee your profit. If you go with the Punch VT3, you risk losing money.

Its a story of trying to run before you know how to walk. Proton has Lotus, they are good with driver's car. So make a driver's car and be GOOD at something first. And make money. Don't try to please everybody all the time, cause you'll end up going backwards.

A Lotus Exige is an amazing car. Everybody agrees its amazing at the way it handles, it corners. But not everybody wants one! The Satria Neo Turbo Manual is not meant for everybody, its meant to be a hot hatch for people who love driving. The guy in the Satria Neo Turbo Manual, stuck in jam, will be busy visualizing the next corner once the traffic is smooth. The guy in the Myvi is dreading the jam because he just wants to get home.

So, with Proton's design, be bold, aim for the stars, don't try to design something that pleases everybody in Proton's management, cause seriously who gives a rats ass what a 50 year old Datuk thinks about a car meant for 1st time car buyers and people looking for value for money cause the Datuk will be buying a Mercedes anyway.

 

[Waiora_ProTuner]

Seems like 1 person here can do more than what 10,000 proton employees did.
Be it design, engineering, sales, procurement, accounting, quality system, human resource and management, economics, customer related, etc..

Shame on Proton..whats the use of all engineering data, technical specification, statistics, assessment, when you cant do your job properly...logics?
better close..or make an offer to that 1 person...advisor maybe?

 

[ixeo]

Seems like 1 person here can do more than what 10,000 proton employees did.
Be it design, engineering, sales, procurement, accounting, quality system, human resource and management, economics, customer related, etc..

Shame on Proton..whats the use of all engineering data, technical specification, statistics, assessment, when you cant do your job properly...logics?
better close..or make an offer to that 1 person...advisor maybe?

Dear Sir, I believe Proton already has the best advisor in Malaysia, our beloved Tun Dr.M. I hope when you say shame on Proton you are not hurling an insult at Tun Dr.M.

Thank you.

 

[kcng]

Going off topic, but I rather entertain you than the other guy who don't do apples to apples comparison.

Sigh, here we go.....(reason why APPLE is #1 and Nokia is dead)

1. Manual gearboxes are cheaper than the Punch VT3 (bear in mind we talking about Satria Neo TURBO here).
2. Manual gearboxes are bullet proof, the Punch VT3 isn't. MOST people who buy the Satria Neo are youngsters, or people who are "sporty" or "trendy". The VT3 is "capable" of a max torque of 215Nm, and the CFE engine throws out 205Nm. Sell some R3 exhaust systems, some ECU tuning by R3..and quickly you go beyond the capability of the VT3. That being said, we don't know how well the VT3 will respond to being driven hard. Plus a lot of people will modify the car with simple intake and exhaust mods. Which leads to...
3. More wear, more tear, more warranty claims for the "automatic" Satria Neo Turbo.

To summarize
Satria Neo Turbo Manual - less cost, sell same price, higher profit margin.
Satria Neo Turbo CVT - higher cost, sell higher? But higher warranty repair ratio, repair costs money which eats into your operational cost.

Plus I doubt anybody who wants a hot hatch wants CVT with it...

The reason why APPLE makes so much money is not because they sell more units. Nokia easily sells 3:1 mobile phones versus APPLE. Apple makes so much money because of operational income. You deduct the cost of goods, cost of operations and APPLE makes more profit margin than Nokia, despite Nokia selling more.

So, you don't need to sell more Satria Neo Turbo Manuals to profit. If you sell a lot of Satria Neo Turbo CVT - if you sell more, and those gearboxes drop like flies, you'll be busy repairing them which costs you both replacement gearboxes, and labor to install it. In the end you might make a loss on every car sold.

In the end if Satria Neo Turbo Manual operation income is 30%, and the Satria Neo Turbo CVT is 18% (costs more to manufacturer, costs more to warranty). Don't need to sell more, just sell enough.

As for the argument "but the automatic gearbox have yet to fail". Well, let's look at examples, shall we? VW's current Polo and Golf DSG gearboxes are faulty, Honda City's CVT attempts were a failure and they reverted to torque converters.

By going with manual, you reduce these problems and guarantee your profit. If you go with the Punch VT3, you risk losing money.

Its a story of trying to run before you know how to walk. Proton has Lotus, they are good with driver's car. So make a driver's car and be GOOD at something first. And make money. Don't try to please everybody all the time, cause you'll end up going backwards.

A Lotus Exige is an amazing car. Everybody agrees its amazing at the way it handles, it corners. But not everybody wants one! The Satria Neo Turbo Manual is not meant for everybody, its meant to be a hot hatch for people who love driving. The guy in the Satria Neo Turbo Manual, stuck in jam, will be busy visualizing the next corner once the traffic is smooth. The guy in the Myvi is dreading the jam because he just wants to get home.

So, with Proton's design, be bold, aim for the stars, don't try to design something that pleases everybody in Proton's management, cause seriously who gives a rats ass what a 50 year old Datuk thinks about a car meant for 1st time car buyers and people looking for value for money cause the Datuk will be buying a Mercedes anyway.

again, how many units of manual u need to sell to break even?
and how sure are you the CVT-box is more expensive?
economics of scale comes into mind....

lets replace the object this time with preve (as neo is too niche a market).

 

[Izso]

I think Proton is fundamentally flawed.

1. Selling that motorbike company for RM1 was a joke. Especially after they bought it for a few million more. Jeez. Make money, not lose money.

2. Rebadging works. Look at the Inspira, Wira and Saga. But they didn't listen. Instead they started making their own cars which a lot of people have issues with (looks wise and gearbox wise).

3. Use of cronies. Quality is not a given with this. Although they deny it, it's an open secret. Their cars have suffered from reliability and poor quality since day 1. This has shredded their reputation since the Waja days.

4. Purchase of Lotus. This was the best thing they did, but they aren't utilizing them to their full potential. People were half expecting to see rebadged Elise or something but nooo, all we got was suspension "tuning done by Lotus". Jeez.

5. Selling more highly spec-ed cars overseas for the same price as the lower spec-ed cars in KL. The locals get crappier cars than the Ozzies or the Saudis or the Europeans.

All these things are killing the company but no one gives a rats ass because the government is picking up their shit as they defecate all over the place. So like what Ixeo said, as long as a certain DrM is still the boss, the company will never mature.

 

[^pomen_GTR^]

Going off topic, but I rather entertain you than the other guy who don't do apples to apples comparison.

Sigh, here we go.....(reason why APPLE is #1 and Nokia is dead)

1. Manual gearboxes are cheaper than the Punch VT3 (bear in mind we talking about Satria Neo TURBO here).
2. Manual gearboxes are bullet proof, the Punch VT3 isn't. MOST people who buy the Satria Neo are youngsters, or people who are "sporty" or "trendy". The VT3 is "capable" of a max torque of 215Nm, and the CFE engine throws out 205Nm. Sell some R3 exhaust systems, some ECU tuning by R3..and quickly you go beyond the capability of the VT3. That being said, we don't know how well the VT3 will respond to being driven hard. Plus a lot of people will modify the car with simple intake and exhaust mods. Which leads to...
3. More wear, more tear, more warranty claims for the "automatic" Satria Neo Turbo.

To summarize
Satria Neo Turbo Manual - less cost, sell same price, higher profit margin.
Satria Neo Turbo CVT - higher cost, sell higher? But higher warranty repair ratio, repair costs money which eats into your operational cost.

Plus I doubt anybody who wants a hot hatch wants CVT with it...

The reason why APPLE makes so much money is not because they sell more units. Nokia easily sells 3:1 mobile phones versus APPLE. Apple makes so much money because of operational income. You deduct the cost of goods, cost of operations and APPLE makes more profit margin than Nokia, despite Nokia selling more.

So, you don't need to sell more Satria Neo Turbo Manuals to profit. If you sell a lot of Satria Neo Turbo CVT - if you sell more, and those gearboxes drop like flies, you'll be busy repairing them which costs you both replacement gearboxes, and labor to install it. In the end you might make a loss on every car sold.

In the end if Satria Neo Turbo Manual operation income is 30%, and the Satria Neo Turbo CVT is 18% (costs more to manufacturer, costs more to warranty). Don't need to sell more, just sell enough.

As for the argument "but the automatic gearbox have yet to fail". Well, let's look at examples, shall we? VW's current Polo and Golf DSG gearboxes are faulty, Honda City's CVT attempts were a failure and they reverted to torque converters.

By going with manual, you reduce these problems and guarantee your profit. If you go with the Punch VT3, you risk losing money.

Its a story of trying to run before you know how to walk. Proton has Lotus, they are good with driver's car. So make a driver's car and be GOOD at something first. And make money. Don't try to please everybody all the time, cause you'll end up going backwards.

A Lotus Exige is an amazing car. Everybody agrees its amazing at the way it handles, it corners. But not everybody wants one! The Satria Neo Turbo Manual is not meant for everybody, its meant to be a hot hatch for people who love driving. The guy in the Satria Neo Turbo Manual, stuck in jam, will be busy visualizing the next corner once the traffic is smooth. The guy in the Myvi is dreading the jam because he just wants to get home.

So, with Proton's design, be bold, aim for the stars, don't try to design something that pleases everybody in Proton's management, cause seriously who gives a rats ass what a 50 year old Datuk thinks about a car meant for 1st time car buyers and people looking for value for money cause the Datuk will be buying a Mercedes anyway.

this...i agree over 9000



manual gearbox car...it doesnt bother if the manual gearbox oil didn't change for 3years or more.....(over 100 000km mileage) do that in CVT,AT,DSG and see the outcome

 

[Supra_Fanatics]

Now we are talking about reliability, profit earning or the design of proton? Alignment lari already guys.

 

[^pomen_GTR^]

again, how many units of manual u need to sell to break even?
and how sure are you the CVT-box is more expensive?
economics of scale comes into mind....

lets replace the object this time with preve (as neo is too niche a market).

basic calculation of parts number comparison alone already showing CVT box more complicated than manual.....


manual: atleast: neutral, 1st pair, 2nd pair, 3rd pair, 4th pair, 5th pair, reverse triplets, final drive, speedo mechanism,clutch assembly, synchro mesh on all pair and bearings.


while....


cvt: atleast: autoclutch assembly, torque converter assembly, belt, main drive pulley pair, driven pulley pair, primary reduction ratio assembly, fluid pump assembly, fluid piping and passage way design, actuator (hydraulic controller), valve assembly, electro-mechanism assembly, TCU assembly, wiring assembly, speedo mechanism, and bearings.



on manual alone atleast, all gearing pair including final drive can be made in a single machining place while cvt needs a lot of machining place with different supplier/specialize specific machining...not to mention electronic sensors and TCU to manufacture and calibrate once installed...


if we compare the CVT mechanism from a scooter off course it would be much simpler than manual box on normal bike.....but since car have a lot of parameter to control and adapt, it became more complicated than the usual manual transmission.....

---------- Post added at 10:55 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 10:52 AM ----------

but i do hope if proton wants to replace neo then use Suprima design and transform into 2 door variants

 

[ixeo]

again, how many units of manual u need to sell to break even?
and how sure are you the CVT-box is more expensive?
economics of scale comes into mind....

lets replace the object this time with preve (as neo is too niche a market).

pomen answered the gearbox price question. as for breaking even, CFE paired with manual, you would be making profit on every unit you sell. there's no "breaking even" because Proton already has the CFE engine and the manual gearboxes. There's no additional R&D costs incurred. Manual gearboxes are proven, bulletproof, the Punch VT3 is not. In fact, Proton is the FIRST car manufacturer to use the VT3, Proton is being a lab rat.

As for replacing the object with Preve. Frankly speaking, I don't know the answer. But educated guesses would be
+ For the love of God get the design right, like a Hyundai K3, New Mazda 3. As above, use Lotus designers.
+ Seriously, BUILT QUALITY is severely lacking, button popping off? Really?
+ Pricing. Proton cars are not competitive in price at all. To give you an idea, Hyundai and Kia first priced their cars cheap to enter the market, then now their selling price is on par with Toyota and Honda. In USA for example, during the last 10-20 years, Hyundai first fought with low pricing, 10 year warranty, but they had subpar design, engine and transmissions. Today, Hyundai is sometimes priced higher than Toyota & Honda, they have very good designs, and they have engines that share underpinnings with Mitsubishi.

Proton's mentality now is wrong, cause they compare themselves against Toyota and Honda. Don't "compare" yourself against them, cause that benchmark is too low. Aim against Mercedes and BMW. And make cars that rival Mercedes and BMW..then maybe you can win the fight against T&H

If your son study and aim to pass with 50%, the best he can do is maybe 60%. But if he targets 100%, the best he can do is 100%.

By doing the Satria Neo Turbo, you'll capture a market that has no competitor in Malaysia, and also in many countries. But that CFE engine needs to push more horses... 200bhp and you're golden. Bank on something you are good at, Proton (with Lotus) is good at handling, so make a seriously HOT hatch. Build something that beats the 208 GTi, Clio RS, Fiesta ST and Polo GTi. Seriously with Lotus and the expertise from the Super 2000, from Cusco.. if they cannot beat them, go bury themselves. Nissan (with Lotus's help) can build a car to beat Porsche, why can't Proton with Lotus build a car that beats a Ford. LOL.

Proton needs a trojan horse into the hearts of people, by perpetually making shit cars, it will, over time, change people's perception to shit. Just do something that people would be proud of, and onlookers will be in awe of. Seriously nobody gives a shit that your car parachuted to the North Pole and successfully started the engine. Cause nobody will drive that car in North Pole anyway, rather than doing stupid things like that, just build the Satria Neo Turbo, bring it to nurburgring and clock the fastest time against the Clio, 208, Fiesta ST, Polo GTi. Whack them at their own game, then undercut them by selling cheaper. Then, get Top Gear UK to review it, and you're golden. No bells, no whistles, no fancy flappy pedals, just a down to earth car that drives.

Alternatively, transfer the ownership of Lotus Europa S to Proton, rebadge it to Proton, let Proton manufacture that, stick a Campro CFE engine inside and start doing business.

If Caterham can stick around for so long with an obsolete Lotus 7, I think Proton can do the same.

Now we are talking about reliability, profit earning or the design of proton? Alignment lari already guys.

Good idea, maybe should change topic to How to Improve Proton.

---------- Post added at 04:33 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 04:28 PM ----------

but i do hope if proton wants to replace neo then use Suprima design and transform into 2 door variants

I feel Satria Neo is nicer than Suprima, just lacking headroom. Why you feel Suprima nicer? Pray tell. Satria Neo is dated already, it needs a facelift, like how BMW facelift their cars, or how Alfa 156 did their facelift in 2003, really OMG huge difference.

 

[^pomen_GTR^]

I feel Satria Neo is nicer than Suprima, just lacking headroom. Why you feel Suprima nicer? Pray tell. Satria Neo is dated already, it needs a facelift, like how BMW facelift their cars, or how Alfa 156 did their facelift in 2003, really OMG huge difference.

not neccesarily nicer...

its just proton needs identity...

1common design....like audi big square grill, bmw with kidney grill, toyota with "ahem" dugong face, hyundai S-flow design.....


since preve,suprima already have similar design...why not for the neo replacement also make it similar...so ppl will easily recognize it as true proton....


*when i say similar...it doesnt mean slap that front end of suprima/preve into satria's butt....atleast make it look a like....wider with lower profile like the current neo compared to prev. satria....






** in my humble opinion....i think all of proton cars were too narrow to fit their overall design proportion..have u ever imagine if saga SV is wider a couple of inches each sides? the exora too...preve and suprima also from my eye view suffer this kind of miss-proportion looks

 

[Supra_Fanatics]

Because proton don't need a signature design, they are recognised and popular in many other wrong ways

BMW have the 2 Kidneys like front grills as signature, while Audi other than the 4 rings, is the big mouth like design and also the headlights design.

But will be good if they have a signature design which one look ppl know is proton. Just like other makes.

 

[DanzEterna]

Because proton don't need a signature design, they are recognised and popular in many other wrong ways

BMW have the 2 Kidneys like front grills as signature, while Audi other than the 4 rings, is the big mouth like design and also the headlights design.

But will be good if they have a signature design which one look ppl know is proton. Just like other makes.

proton also famous ma..for its faulty gearbox & power windows.

 

[Supra_Fanatics]

proton also famous ma..for its faulty gearbox & power windows.

Power windows problems, we can only know if it is proton at toll booths :rolleyes:

 

[^pomen_GTR^]

Power windows problems, we can only know if it is proton at toll booths :rolleyes:

if that..means i've mistaken some protons that was actually were toyotas and hondas

 

[DanzEterna]

Power windows problems, we can only know if it is proton at toll booths :rolleyes:

thats y all proton users use smart tag