Regarding NA Modifications

Veloc

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Hi...

Not an expert in NA tuning here.. Got a few questions to ask... For others, feel free to add questions or contribute some experience.

I am planning to get a Blacktop 20V in the future. Just want to ask regarding Na tuning for the engine.

My first question for this thread is... Let's say, if I would to swap the camshafts for a 272 or 288 or even a 304 degree camshaft, how will the fuel consumption be like? Will the blacktop still be able to maintain the good FC as the stock camshaft or will it increase?

I ask this because the blacktop utilizes VVT to activate/deactivate the high cams based on throttle position. So let's say if I swap it to a higher cam i.e 272 or 288 or even a 304 degree camshaft, will the FC be the same for city/normal driving since it will be running like a normal 16V engine without using highcams.

For aftermarket camchafts for Blacktop 20V, do they just increase the lift and duration of the highcam lobes (VVT cam lobes) of do they do it to the normal low cam lobes as well?
Because if they do it to the low cams as well, I'd expect that the FC & drivability wouldn't be able to remain the same. So I think I will not go for it ;)
 

SkYwAlKeR

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i didnt know 4age black top got cam switching profile technology... VVT is just advance/retard the cam timing laa... it does not perform cam switching...

and if u planning to slot in 288 deg above cams, pls dont think about fuel consumption... ur idling will be another problem... u probably need to idle at 1.5k... u will not be able to use ur aircond... etc... cams above 27x deg arent really meant for daily drive, unless u can live without the creature comfort....

272 for street cam is still acceptable... get the cylinder head ported and polished.... hook it up with a piggyback ecu.... higher compression pistons, forged conrods and balanced lower rotating crank do help a lot as well...
 

Veloc

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i didnt know 4age black top got cam switching profile technology... VVT is just advance/retard the cam timing laa... it does not perform cam switching...

and if u planning to slot in 288 deg above cams, pls dont think about fuel consumption... ur idling will be another problem... u probably need to idle at 1.5k... u will not be able to use ur aircond... etc... cams above 27x deg arent really meant for daily drive, unless u can live without the creature comfort....

272 for street cam is still acceptable... get the cylinder head ported and polished.... hook it up with a piggyback ecu.... higher compression pistons, forged conrods and balanced lower rotating crank do help a lot as well...
Waa... All the while I though BT can alter cam profile... Noob T.T

Okay... But if it can just control the timing without altering the lift or duration, what benefits does it gives? I heard that it suppose to improve low end torque and FC for low loads. But how to achieve that with just altering timing? Because this means that the BT runs on high cams all the time as well. How does it improve the FC?
 

SkYwAlKeR

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Waa... All the while I though BT can alter cam profile... Noob T.T

Okay... But if it can just control the timing without altering the lift or duration, what benefits does it gives? I heard that it suppose to improve low end torque and FC for low loads. But how to achieve that with just altering timing? Because this means that the BT runs on high cams all the time as well. How does it improve the FC?
vtec and cps can do cam switching laa...
advancing the cam timing for better pickup and retard it for better top speed... something like that... u can have best of both worlds...
if wanna improve FC, dont think of performance cam...
 

hachiroku clan

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vvt-i serve the same function as an adjustable cam pulley.. only thing is it adjust by its self..

unless u plan to get a 2zz-ge vvtL-i engine then u can have higher cam duration. 232 on regular profile, 292 on higher profile if im not mistaken.. so if u wanna have good FC, dont rev till the switchover point hehehe
 

Veloc

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TO ALL SIFUS PRO IN NA!!!!!

VALVE TIMING!!!! VALVE TIMING!!!!

Please help me... I think of this everyday I cannot solve!!! I cannot sleep and get bad headache.... I think all the time until stress the hell out of me... I take time in office to read everyday until I cannot work... I read so much until my eyes blurr.... PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE help to enlighten this NA noob... My brains are about to burst. There are a few things about NA that I find that I do not understand, or rather, there are contradicting facts...

1. Advance timing will give more low-end torque (Intake valves only; on DOHC; all else same)
Why? I know they said that if advance cam timing, it will enable the intake valves to shut earlier thus trapping more air & fuel building more pressure inside the cylinder. Fine. Acceptable. But what the heck? By doing this, if the intake valves shut earlier, the engine might not suck in enough air & fuel if the piston haven't reach the BDC. So doesn't this actually reduces the amount of air-fuel and pressure inside the cylinders?

2. Retard timing will give more top-end power (Intake valves only; on DOHC; all else same)
Why is this? People said that by retarding the cams, the valves will shut later thus allowing for more air-fuel to enter the engine. But making it shut later will also mean that the valves will open later! Then the air-fuel could not enter the cylinders yet when the piston start to move down! And also, doing this will miss the chance to make use of overlapping with the exhaust stroke (scavenging effect) which is suppose to help draw more air-fuel in.

3. High duration & lift cams will improve top end power, reduce low-end torque and severe the fuel consumption.
I understand about the top-end power and low-end torque compromise. But why does this affect the FC so badly? Suppose that we have a high duration and lift cam engine, at idle and low-revs, the high duration and lift will let the air-fuel escape back to the intake manifold because the valves cannot shut off when the pistons start moving up. Isn't this suppose to improve FC because we actually use less air-fuel? Doesn't this reduce the effective displacement of an engine? For example, a 2.0 L engine might have an effective displacement of only 1.8 L.
This also cause the power/expansion stroke to have a longer movement downward compared to the compression stroke simulating an atkinson cycle engine which is more economical. Just like the camry 2.4 engine.

Help help help help me please... I'd be really grateful if anyone can share your knowledge...
 

hachiroku clan

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1. Advance timing will give more low-end torque (Intake valves only; on DOHC; all else same)

for this question, i think that is because when u advance, the valves will opes sooner/earlier so the in-flow of air-fuel mixture could push the exhaust gases out just before the pistons reach TDC, so as the pistons travel downwards, all thats in the cylinder is 'fresh air-fuel' as the remaining exhaust gases are forced out already. on high-end, the performance is not as good because when the piston is traveling downward on the intake stroke, that is when air-fuel is injected, the combustion that had just happened is STILL causing the gasses to expand thus not allowing the air-fuel mixture to enter the cylinder as much as on low-end (because the pistons are moving very fast, but the the combustion/expansion rate of the previous air-fuel mixture is expanding at its 'normal' rate i:e slower than the pistons) causing a poorer power on high-end.


2. Retard timing will give more top-end power (Intake valves only; on DOHC; all else same

on high-end, the pistons will start moving downwards BEFORE the intake valves opens. so what happens is the exhaust gases that is still in the combustion chamber will be 'sucked' ( i dunno how to explain this) so as the piston travels downward with both intake & exhaust valves closed the 'extra' exhaust gases will be forced to 'shrink', causing a huge drop in pressure so this creates more vacuum. more vacuum will suck more air-fuel mixture.
on low end, there wont be much vacuum created as the exhaust gases are not of the same volume compared to the volume on high-end.

this is logically thinking.. but please correct me if im wrong..
btw what u said actually contradicts as this site says the opposite..
http://www.my-acoustic.com/Car/engine_head/adjustable_pulleys/adjustable_cam_pulleys.htm
 

^pomen_GTR^

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May 13, 2010
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TO ALL SIFUS PRO IN NA!!!!!

VALVE TIMING!!!! VALVE TIMING!!!!

Please help me... I think of this everyday I cannot solve!!! I cannot sleep and get bad headache.... I think all the time until stress the hell out of me... I take time in office to read everyday until I cannot work... I read so much until my eyes blurr.... PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE help to enlighten this NA noob... My brains are about to burst. There are a few things about NA that I find that I do not understand, or rather, there are contradicting facts...

1. Advance timing will give more low-end torque (Intake valves only; on DOHC; all else same)
Why? I know they said that if advance cam timing, it will enable the intake valves to shut earlier thus trapping more air & fuel building more pressure inside the cylinder. Fine. Acceptable. But what the heck? By doing this, if the intake valves shut earlier, the engine might not suck in enough air & fuel if the piston haven't reach the BDC. So doesn't this actually reduces the amount of air-fuel and pressure inside the cylinders?

2. Retard timing will give more top-end power (Intake valves only; on DOHC; all else same)
Why is this? People said that by retarding the cams, the valves will shut later thus allowing for more air-fuel to enter the engine. But making it shut later will also mean that the valves will open later! Then the air-fuel could not enter the cylinders yet when the piston start to move down! And also, doing this will miss the chance to make use of overlapping with the exhaust stroke (scavenging effect) which is suppose to help draw more air-fuel in.

3. High duration & lift cams will improve top end power, reduce low-end torque and severe the fuel consumption.
I understand about the top-end power and low-end torque compromise. But why does this affect the FC so badly? Suppose that we have a high duration and lift cam engine, at idle and low-revs, the high duration and lift will let the air-fuel escape back to the intake manifold because the valves cannot shut off when the pistons start moving up. Isn't this suppose to improve FC because we actually use less air-fuel? Doesn't this reduce the effective displacement of an engine? For example, a 2.0 L engine might have an effective displacement of only 1.8 L.
This also cause the power/expansion stroke to have a longer movement downward compared to the compression stroke simulating an atkinson cycle engine which is more economical. Just like the camry 2.4 engine.

Help help help help me please... I'd be really grateful if anyone can share your knowledge...


simple..

answer for 1: its all because of the velocity...and flow efficiency...imagine u were on a road with several traffic light that have same distant....and the light turns into green as u cruise by slowly with minimal traffic....that was on low rpm...but when try to drive past all the light in high speed on sam traffic u can past some light..but not all because u have to stop/slow down to wait the slow-next green light...short time frame for green light also making u slower when high traffic...the capacity of traffic was even small because all of them would be slower and slower since too many traffic

this means the engine starving on high rpm..compared to low rpm relaxed condition...and u cant go fast



answer for 2: same traffic light on that stretch...but one day u were cruising like normal,suddenly one of the light on red longer......even the green was longer by the time u start to move the next light have already turns red..have to wait long again before move on slow speed cruising....but if u drive fast enuf u can go through past all the light easily.....so when even high traffic capacity travelling at high speed all of you can co through the light sap sap sui....but imagine got hoggers and all have to drive slow in heavy traffic..sure cannot go through all the light..still stuck at some...

this mean the engine was good at high rpm...compared to low rpm "hogger"....u have to go fast but if u go slow then it wasn't smooth...takes time to accelerate after slowing down...

answer for 3: why FC affected so much???stock camshaft lift and duration have been calculated by the engineer to balance power,torque and acceptable fuel consumption in mind....when u change to higher lift+longer duration..but this means higher fuel sucked.....

coz higher lift+Longer duration sucked more fuel+air during intake stroke....

but longer duration waste the sucked fuel+air during compression stroke because the mixture already escaped through the late closing exhaust valve....there u goes wasting money on fuel....on idle......

still,since the powerband move to higher rpm...u have to rev higher to get the car moving from stop...rev higher means higher FC...

more,since it was higher lift+longer duration to get more power by allowing more fuel+air during intake at higher rpm..and u have drive it on high rpm to maintain the powerband...it simply means higher FC in any way u drive a modified camshaft car...





be in mind....a camshaft only have theorytical optimum range around 2000rpm range....like 3k-5k range...2.5k-4.5k 8k-10k rpm range....so if u get "this much" in specific rev range...u cant get the same on other rev range....this is why v-tec,mivec,vvt,vvti,dvvt etc etc invented.....to give a broader optimum range of a camshaft.....to the engine
 
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