change internal to external fuel pump

[khair]

just want to seek some advice here,currently i'm driving saga with 4g91 engine.lately my internal fuel pump starting giving me problem and last friday my car engine suddenly stop while cruising at LDP.I suspect something to do with my fuel pump coz i can start the engine but whenever i engage 1st gear the car wont move and have to tow the car back to house.My question is can i just change the fuel pump to external fuel pump just like that or need any ohter thing such as tank surge.for those who has done it before kindly advice.....thank you.

 

[khoyos]

if u use 1 external fuel pump, most likely there will be fuel surge if petrol level is less than quarter tank. (if u go sepang trackday, 3-quarter full also got surge). so best setup is using 2 pumps, with 1 pump before, and 1 pump after fuel surge tank.

i'm using 2 bosch pumps. bosch 934 from fuel tank to surge tank, and bosch 910 from surge tank to engine. better buy brand new, so that u get some reliability...

 

[Maxx]

some q.
how much to make surge tank and i wonder if readily made available.?
my car lost fuel supply if taking hard right corner. sometimes engine will died while taking right corners.

 

[khoyos]

mine cost RM380, custom made using alloy. if use stainless steel, will be cheaper. i dont think they are available in ready made form. actually u can use any steel/metal canister, and make the nipples for fuel hoses. u dont need such a big tank. maybe 1.5liters would be enough...

 

[Maxx]

ic. wheres ur surge tank located? rear trunk?
can it be place inside engine bay. let say firewall.
i think mine need 1 liter only. 1liter turbo engine. sufficient?

and using external fuel pump, do i need afpr or the std 1 is good enuf?

 

[khoyos]

i put mine at the rear trunk. please avoid putting the surge tank in the firewall. super great risk of anything bad happening in case of front-end collision. i think better be safe and make it 1.5-2liters. dunno lah, ask ur mechanic. ur mechanic knows best.

afpr better have when not needed rather than not have when needed...

 

[Maxx]

ic. ok. thanx for ur info.
much apprieciated.
tq.

 

[edgar_raphael]

what makes you think you've got a faulty fuel pump? You dont need an external stock pump if you have a stock engine.

If you car won't move when you engage in first gear, then most probably your gearsets are stuffed. LOL

Do a proper check before replacing something when the problems will still be there.

 

[khair]

if u use 1 external fuel pump, most likely there will be fuel surge if petrol level is less than quarter tank. (if u go sepang trackday, 3-quarter full also got surge). so best setup is using 2 pumps, with 1 pump before, and 1 pump after fuel surge tank.

i'm using 2 bosch pumps. bosch 934 from fuel tank to surge tank, and bosch 910 from surge tank to engine. better buy brand new, so that u get some reliability...

bro,mind telling me the total cost for the whole thing coz if the cost is high i have to reconsider this project for this time being,whats the different between 910 and 934....thank for the reply

 

[khair]

what makes you think you've got a faulty fuel pump? You dont need an external stock pump if you have a stock engine.

If you car won't move when you engage in first gear, then most probably your gearsets are stuffed. LOL

Do a proper check before replacing something when the problems will still be there.

If you refer to my first post, I'm not driving saga with stock engine,normally if you're driving fuel injection engine,if can start the engine which means the fire is there and when you engage to 1st gear the car wont move most probably threre is no fuel coming to you're engine,that is why the engine will die after few second,further more this is not my first experience and i did check the pipe line near the intake and no fuel found.I strongly suspect my my fuel pump faulty...any way thanks for the reply

 

[edgar_raphael]

How can you start your engine when there is no fuel?

You don't make sense here. And what 'pipe line near the intake' are you referring to?

Is your injector faulty?

An easy way to check if your fuel pump is working is to turn on your ignition key (but not start the engine), go to the back of the car where your fuel tank is, sqaut down, and try to listen to a whinning sound of the fuel pump, if there is a small whinning sound, then your fuel pump is working perfectly fine.

You said the car won't move when you engage in 1st gear, but does that mean the engine is still runing?

Mate, you gotta know when there is no fuel, the engine will not start at all.

 

[khair]

How can you start your engine when there is no fuel?

You don't make sense here. And what 'pipe line near the intake' are you referring to?

Is your injector faulty?

An easy way to check if your fuel pump is working is to turn on your ignition key (but not start the engine), go to the back of the car where your fuel tank is, sqaut down, and try to listen to a whinning sound of the fuel pump, if there is a small whinning sound, then your fuel pump is working perfectly fine.

You said the car won't move when you engage in 1st gear, but does that mean the engine is still runing?

Mate, you gotta know when there is no fuel, the engine will not start at all.

Sorry if i confused you,is true that i can still start the engine but will die after few second,if i engage 1st gear and press the throttle pedal you can hear blurrrr sound then the engine just die like that,that's way i suspect no fuel coming to the engine.
Can we still hear the sound if is internal fuel pump?anyway i will try to do as adviced and try to consult my mechanic...thanks again mate

 

[cipan_supercas]

How can you start your engine when there is no fuel?

You don't make sense here. And what 'pipe line near the intake' are you referring to?

Is your injector faulty?

An easy way to check if your fuel pump is working is to turn on your ignition key (but not start the engine), go to the back of the car where your fuel tank is, sqaut down, and try to listen to a whinning sound of the fuel pump, if there is a small whinning sound, then your fuel pump is working perfectly fine.

You said the car won't move when you engage in 1st gear, but does that mean the engine is still runing?

Mate, you gotta know when there is no fuel, the engine will not start at all.

I think what khair was trying to say was that the fuel pressure was low which relates to a faulty fuel pump. Excuse them for english is not their mother's tounge but to us here locally, we understood that right away.

With low fuel pressure, of course you can get the engine to start but not able to move it. This fault is quite common for budget mods where most stuff are used parts and are not working up to par.

khair;
For Saga to have an internal fuel pump with standard fuel tank is a wrong mix. Either you have to change the whole tank from the injected model or just use an external fuel pump. When using single fuel pump, try to install it at the lowest possible position to minimise that surge or if you are using the car for 'performance', I suggest a fuel surge tank with 2 pumps to be include in your fuelling setup for ease of mind.

Whatever it is, have you checked your fuel filter? It may be clogged which choked the fuel supply.

Hope that helps.

 

[edgar_raphael]

I think what you are trying to explain here is that, when the rpm increases, the engine will stalled, because you suspect a faulty pump?

Well, before you jump into any conclusion on a faulty fuel pump (which in thise case is a very very rare manufacturing defects), unless you've done something to it, they rarely fail as an OEM item.

Yes, you can hear the pump working by squating down, come to as close to your fuel tank and you should hear a small whinning or whizzing sound.

Does your exhaust emits any suspicious looking smoke or etc?

 

[cipan_supercas]

Well, before you jump into any conclusion on a faulty fuel pump (which in thise case is a very very rare manufacturing defects), unless you've done something to it, they rarely fail as an OEM item.

It's not a rare cases when using that standard OEM tank. If you understand the physical construction of the Proton Saga tank, then you'll know what actually causes those premature failure.

Proton Saga tank are shallow and does not contained any surge barrier in it. It causes the fuel pump to suck in air especially when it's quarter full. That air trap is the culprit to the failures of those pumps. Furthermore, we don't even have the opportunity to have a first look of how the internal pump have been installed. I've came across a case where that internally fitted pumps have those delivery tube being disconnected due to a poor installation. The pump are actually just hanged by the delivery tube without proper secure brackets.

Whatever that will be, I certainly hope that khair would have taken his car for a further inspection of the actual cause of the failure. We are just here to help and you can try our various suggestions.

 

[huakenny]

I think what you are trying to explain here is that, when the rpm increases, the engine will stalled, because you suspect a faulty pump?

Well, before you jump into any conclusion on a faulty fuel pump (which in thise case is a very very rare manufacturing defects), unless you've done something to it, they rarely fail as an OEM item.

Yes, you can hear the pump working by squating down, come to as close to your fuel tank and you should hear a small whinning or whizzing sound.

fuel pump is easily die le...mine oso died before, and i just change to Bosch internal fuel pump..even it is more noisy compare to oem, but it stil serve me till now...

for saga, try to change fuel tank...as external fuel surge + 2 fuel pump aint cheap...and since u r using 4g91 nia...dun need go so extreme le....

my2cent

 

[khoyos]

huakenny:
injection fuel tank for saga iswara: got money not necessarily can buy (super rare)
surge tank + 2 pump setup: expensive but can be made available any day.

only a saga user would know that...

khair: bosch 934(volvo) and 910(mercedes benz) roughly same price, around plus minus rm380 at any spare part shop... 934 flows higher than 910 but 910 is already good enough. second hand market price at chop shops around rm180 but i dont recommend buying used fuel pumps.

 

[cipan_supercas]

second hand market price at chop shops around rm180 but i dont recommend buying used fuel pumps.

Not recommended but most favour option by modders. Used fuel pump. Another reason to an early failure....

 

[zakie]

4G91?? r u sure fuel pump is the main problem??
urs is stock engine isit?? if stock y need xternal fuel pump??
normally turbo's maniac needs it for upboost, never heard a 4G91 stock car using a xternal fuel pump... go laaa send the car to see the 'doctor' 1st, dun simply waste ur money on sumthin' ur car's does not need, later on u kena sembelih laaa, then u noe laaaa....... dun simply judge the failure, double check....

 

[khair]

4G91?? r u sure fuel pump is the main problem??
urs is stock engine isit?? if stock y need xternal fuel pump??
normally turbo's maniac needs it for upboost, never heard a 4G91 stock car using a xternal fuel pump... go laaa send the car to see the 'doctor' 1st, dun simply waste ur money on sumthin' ur car's does not need, later on u kena sembelih laaa, then u noe laaaa....... dun simply judge the failure, double check....

Actually I had my car checked by my 'doctor' last night and he confirmed that my fuel pump is faulty and recommend my to change it to external pump.
About "kena sembelih"i will not worry so much coz my "doctor" is very reliable in dignosing the the problem,he used to involve actively in drag car those days....where can you get change absorber and timing belt for RM30.00 only

I think those who driving saga only will know the problem better like cipan and kyoyos...always see people will ask for your advice when comes to mods.related in SIOC forum....somesort of sifula.
my mech.qouted me RM350 for the fuel pump but forgot to ask the codela,i will post the result once i had the pump changed.