WARNING: RELIGIOUS TOPIC

[satria_95]

Let me lay down some ground rules first.

1) All post by anyone at all will be considered as your own individual opinions/thoughts/etc.

2) Since point 1) is now in place, DO NOT FLAME. If you feel aggrevated/angry/offended/etc. and want to post something to teach back/scold back/etc. back that particular person who aggrevated/angry/offended/etc., then I plead you all to please be at peace and remain calm and composed.

3) Please understand that this topic is VERY subjective and very wide and thus, be reminded that there may and will have conflict of interest. Should and if this happens, please do respect any conflicts, differences, etc. that's been posted.

4) Please, by all means, just remain calm, retain your respect for others and all in all, DO NOT FLAME. Again, if you feel angry, challenge yourself NOT TO POST and use this as a challenge to conquer your anger. I'm quite sure you'll be a victor if you successfully conquer your anger.

5) Also, I would appreciate if some thoughts be given to your posting (at least give it a try) before posting.

6) I mean not to be lansi, "chuen", or anything at all but if I see any flames start to go astray, I will either delete this entire topic and if I can't, will get Tom to delete it. I just feel there is no point of having a topic where certain people can't control their emotions over sensitive topics.

7) If I'm wrong in any areas, please do enlighten me so that I can understand it from your point of view. And would hope that this will be done in an enlightening way.

I extend my gratitude to all of you for being peaceful and understanding.

 

[satria_95]

Here's a situation that I have pondered about.

I'm a Christian, though not a very well "educated" Christian but basically, I know a bit of here and there. I still have very very much to learn and to be taught the right ways of life. Having said that, one of my loved one, who's also blessed with long live, has went "home" (meaning "passed away" for those who may be slightly blur with the word "home"). He's lived to an age of 87 and all his kids have grown up and are having good enough lives. His children is now independent with their own families and are well brought up. This loved one of mine is my grand dad. My grand dad was, is and will always be a great person. His funeral was done in a Buddhist way, with the typical prayers with joss sticks, respectful bowing and the likes. However, if following strictly to the bible (if I am wrong in any areas, please do not hesitate to show me the right direction), Christians are not allowed to hold joss sticks or even follow any procedings that are non Christians. Due to this religious issue, I was half bound and half not. Why so is because no matter what religion my grand dad is, he has once taken care of me and the most important in all life, he has and still loves my entire family and me. He was and will always be one I dearly called "my greatest grand dad." Yet, I followed through the Buddhist funeral proceedings accordingly, all except the holding and praying with joss sticks. Through the funeral proceedings, I bowed respectfully in replacement of praying and bowing with joss sticks in hand. Had I followed strictly to the Bible (again, please correct me if I'm wrong), I wouldn't even be bowing or anything at all during the entire funeral. I made a decision to so-called "break the rules" of following the Bible because I loved my grand dad and even during his "journey home", I WILL respect my grand dad, no matter what.
Now, it seems controversial towards the Christian teachings (yet again, correct me accordingly if I'm wrong), I also felt that Christianity teaches respect and this is what I have for my grand dad. My thinking leaned towards the love that he used to give the entire family, me included. In the end, I did everything Buddhist except for handling of joss sticks. This even included releasing his ash (he was cremated) into the sea, where I held his bones and ash with my bare hands (I'm not sure if the Bible has this as well, please enlighten me). All this done in the name of respectful love for someone who I regreted not spending enough time with, only to realize now that lost time CANNOT be made up once he/she has "went home".
Oh, just to add, I know there may be many different kinds of Buddhist funeral proceedings but let's just assume I followed one that was done for my grand dad.

My question.
1) Have I done wrong by not following the Bible accordingly, by following the Buddhist proceedings?

2) In your opinion, and given a funeral situation which is somewhat the same as above, where there is a "conflict" of religious proceedings but it involves a really closely loved one who has "gone home", what would you have done?

 

[satria_95]

SHORTER VERSION.

I'm Christian. My grand dad is Buddhist. According to the Bible, Christians should follow only the Christian teachings and should not follow the non Christian proceedings. When my grand dad passed away, the funeral proceedings was done in a Buddhist way. However, I have follow the Buddhist funeral proceedings for my grand dad, all except the handling of joss sticks, due to the respectful love I have for my grand dad.

1) Am I considered wrong for following the Buddhist proceedings?

2) In cases like this, what would you have done?

 

[jeremy]

emm...i'm oso a christian...buyt not so "educated" christian oso..b4 i was baptised, i attended a "baptism course".. accordin to the teacher, it's ok to hold the joss stick and follow the buddist way of prayin as long as you don believe in it..like u just do it to respect the deceased...and not because u believe in the religion or it's teachings...(hope i get it right...don shoot me ar...coz...i' not an educated christian as mentioned b4 lo"//

when my grandpa passed away few years back...i had no hesitation to hold jossstick ar bow or anything,,,coz...ii did it 2 honor n respect my grandpa...not so much bout the religion stuff anymore..more bout me n my grandpa...give last respect ma...

thus,,i don feel tat i commited a sin..tat's my opinion... :)

 

[Glocker]

My sincere condolences to you and your family.

I don't really care much for proceedings. As long as I have and am showing respect for the person who has passed away and I do not believe I'm being hypocritical, it should not bother me even if I have to follow rites totally different against mine.

I believe I'm open minded enough to see pass all the rites/rituals in religions and cultures and realise that their meanings in the end are one and the same. That meaning is, Rest In Peace.

 

[satria_95]

jeremy,
I felt that too, to be honest. For someone who has dearly loved me and left, I really couldn't bring myself to follow (at that time, at that moment, and also what I understood of the Christian teachings) exactly what the Bible says or teach. There was a lot of contradicting thoughts in my head.
For one, there is a teaching that says "All love is from God" and I love my grand dad. How could I not pay respect or anything? Secondly, from what I know, Christian educates us that Chinese people who pass away will go "down" and that Christians should not "pay respect" to those who goes "down". Thirdly, I was brought to believe that as long as your heart is only towards God, then whatever proceedings of other religions that we follow will matter no more, or at least, not much.
Such a subjective issue. Hey, thanks for sharing your opinion. Appreciate it.

Glocker,
Thanks for your condolence wishing. Yeah, you got a good point there. That point also went through my head. Seems like my head doesn't want to rest. hahaha But to be honest, my grand dad looked very peaceful when he left. My relatives believes that my grand dad knows he has done a good job in bringing up the family, and that his time has come for him to "go home".

Also in my head was that he was and will always be someone dearly loved and he has left. We are sad but yet, happy in a sense that he need not suffer any pain any further, as old age symptoms are setting in. So, in a way, he is now relieved of the physical pain that he has to endure.

 

[prodigy]

satria95, u didn't do anything wrong at all. your religion teaches you respect to the old ones and your grandpa just passed away(my condolences) so in my personal opinion, its ok to pray the buddhist way as its a mark of respect to the dead ones. as for joss stick, personally i think its ok to hold a joss stick out of respect, moreover to your grandpa. why? because holding a josstick doesn't mean you're changing your religion to buddhist. its subjective but its all about your self belief.

when my grandma passed away few years back, my cousins who are christians also held a joss stick out of respect. same with my aunty who converted to be a christians after getting married to my christian uncle. my uncle was very understanding that he didn't mind my aunty or cousins holding joss sticks and in fact he followed watever the monk told him to do too.

comeon man, the whole purpose of religion is to live happily and not harm others. i mean if you're holding a joss stick out of respect, i don't think God will be that angry with you compared to bribing a cop when you know you were doing 160kmh.

 

[jeremy]

satria_95...my deepest condolence to your beloved grandad.

i never hesitated holdin the jossstick...it never actually crosses my mind tat i had commited a sini or anything cause i love my grandpa so...n all i wanted to do at that monment was to pay my final respaect to him..

seems like you r in dilemma...unable to justify your actions...hope to receive more opinions from the others.. :)

 

[InitialD]

There is nothing wrong lah. I am sure the bible didn't say u can't hold joss stick rite? Besides, holding the josstick and bowing 3 times is just a show of respect.

My cousin sister's husband is a methodist and he also follow his father every year for "ching ming" - helping his father clean their ancestor's grave in the chinese graveyard.

But there are some people who are really stubborn.. like my schoolmate. He was born a buddhist but later converted to Born Again Christian when he went to Australia. At his wedding ceremony, he refused to offer josstick to his ancestors. His mother was so furious and caused a big scene in front of friends and relatives. His sister finally knocked some sense into his head and he finally did it. Afterall, as a chinese, u need to follow some chinese tradition rite?

By the way, I heard of a theory that says that we are all praying to the same god. Just that in each religion, we have different interpretation. Like how the Jews, Christians and Muslim have their roots in the middle east.

 

[satria_95]

InitialD,
Yeah, I heard about that too, that everybody prays to the same God, just in their own ways. A buddhist monk once told me, "whatever religion you are, a good heart will always earn you good name with the Gods." I've still got a long way to learning to have more quality in my life. hehehe

Thanks for everybody's wishings. Well, I had pretty much the same opinions to everyone of y'all. Thus, I'll remain the respect and put aside any kind of boundaries when it comes to respect. All in all, it's all in the heart. A good heart would mean that respect will always be in place.
It's actually rather nice to have open and peaceful discussions like this. Nobody flames nobody and everybody is just peaceful. All this funeral issues also made me start to think about quality of life, especially with loved ones. Then, it lead me to think about my own quality as a human on this planet. No doubt humans will have emotions but I do believe that improvement will never end. As for myself, I use to have a bad temper but when I think about it, it's really pointless to get angry or temperamental after something has happened. Then again, if certain things happened very unfairly and I've been the victim when I'm totally innocent, it could be a very great challenge to control my temper. Guess that's what it actually is, a challenge to control my temper and hope for justice to prevail, one way or another.
I thought down to a trail of events if I come out victorious in controlling my temper. Some of the events are better driving attitude, better and easier sociability in terms of communicate with others, better focus on life and life's happenings, etc. And till I thought about those stuff, then only it strikes me that changing 1 bad habit/attitude could lead to so many better qualities in me.

 

[Liquanize]

Yo dude, you did good man. I'm a catholic myself and i think you did something appropriate and best to what you've believe in. For a catholic, we are allowed to hold the joss stick and bow and bla bla bla (all according to the proceedings) however it's all done with the intention of paying respect ONLY. Believing in what you've believe so far has lead you to walk the right way so don't worry about it dude.

And my condolence to hear about your grandpa man. Take care and chillz man~!

;)

 

[narx]

dude,
religion divides us but spritually we are the same..

till then...

 

[boggysv]

sorry to hear about your grand-dad, hope you are coping well.

well, I'm not a christian, I'm registered as a buddhist in my IC.
even so, I dont really follow the buddhist way of life, i kill mosquitoes, eat meat and hardly pray.

My thoughts are as follows:
Be honourable and true to yourself and to ppl, do not victimise others and think twice before doing anything. Make sure you do not feel guilty when you go to bed at night, you can hide a secret from everyone except yourself.

this may seem simple, and i think many ppl may think i am childish, but it is my believe and I also believe in karma.

and a few questions:
if your religion states a certain rule, and you are under a situation where it is best that you break that rule (petty issues for examples like the joss stick and bowing where you are not doing harmful things) . what would be the best approach?

also, when religion clashes with customs for issues like statues or formalities. Where should one stand?


cheers ppl,
chen

 

[alantan]

dear satria95,

I don;t really agree on the monk statement,"whatever religion you are, a good heart will always earn you good name with the Gods."

First of all,we do not earn a good name with the godS.God gave it to us(life) if we believe in him and accept him as a personal savior.Refer to,John 3:16. and Titus 3:5and then 1 Peter 3:18.

and regardless to your grand dad funeral which is being done in bhudist proceding.i personally thinks it was alright for you to follow the procedure because you are just respecting all the people including you late grandad and following the custom which was brought down from the ancestors.

Do know that christianity is all about love,joy,peace..and god says in John 13:34-35,'all men will know that you are my deciples if you love one another'.so You do it because you love your late grandad and praise the lord because you did waht jesus said we're suppose to do which is love one another.

so satria_95, there's no problem ma...

:) cheers

 

[larune]

sat95: well actually there are allowances for such situations as yours in the Bible; somewhere in the old testament, the personal servant of a foreign king had been converted and he was afraid because he had to stoop down and bow before another idol to help his king up. The prophet (who, I can't remember), reassured him that it was fine. Can't exactly remember the reason though. Something to have to do with needing to, and doing out his own will, probably?

 

[topui11]

yo dude...

as a muslim... i've confronted this kind of situation before and have ask some ustaz about it. well... couple of years back, one of my childhood fren, a catholic, passed away because of cancer. Anyway, i was contemplating attending his funeral or not.. so i ask some ustaz for their opinion. As they told me, it's ok to pay your respect to the deceased and pray in your own way.. as long as u didn't steer away from your religious belief and, for a moment, converting yourself into the other religion.

meaning that, it's ok for me to go and attend the funeral and pay respect to the guy. just that i have to remember, that i'm still a muslim and in my own way, i'll say my prayers to him, and not get too involved in the ceremony/prayers. Physical gestures are common coz you're paying respect to the guy, but in your heart, you're still who u are... regardless... rite?

so... it's ok la.. i think.

 

[si|verfish]

Thats the problem with human beings. Always caught up in petty differences. Blindly following protocol. I strongly urge everyone to look at the big picture all the time and keep an open mind.

A few questions for you guys to ponder:
1) Why is there religion?
2) Why do we need religion?
3) Who brought religion to us?

Ok, now I'm speaking of religion in a very broad scale (not limited to Christianity or etc.). Try and answer the 3 questions above without following strictly by the book (by your religious book that is).

My view of this. Humans are frail creatures. Fragile not just physically but mentally as well. We always need guidance and leadership. We feel more comfortable if there are rules and guidelines to teach us how to live. We get lost without protocol. Which is where religion comes in. Religion is a way of life. Its provides us a set of rules on how we should go about living. And we humans like that. We love to be taught how to live. This relates to question 1 and 2.

How bout 3? Who brought religion into the world. Well according to respective religions, it is pretty much different. But if you look at it from a different perspective and not be bogged down by your believes for a moment, you will see that it is quite similar. Men. Men brought religion into the world. Men who are apparently "enlightened". It is these enlightened men who preached religion to the world. The bible wasn't faxed to us. It was men who wrote them down after getting "enlightenment".

Ok, now I am a Catholic. Not very devout I must say. I do believe in God (means I do believe that there is a greater divine power). But I also have a very simple understanding of religion. If you want to believe in God, thats all you should believe in. Keep it simple. Everything else is rules and protocol left over by men of olden times. Some which might not apply very well to this time and age. As someone rightly pointed out, religion is there to point you towards the right road. It is so that we humans do good. But how would we classify good? Thats where religion comes in. It provides guidelines. But these guidelines were done ages ago. So we should exercise some common sense when following rules. Furthermore, the Bible for example (it applies to any other religious text), has been translated and rewritten time and time again. Its original meaning gradually lost through time. So who knows what is supremely right or wrong. We really have to use our brain to judge.

Which brings me back to satria_95's dillema. Forget all the nuisance, not very rational rules of religion. Don't be so strict. Do what is right for you. Keep the basic teachings of God as guidelines and go from there. You must remember the rest are just protocols. Some which are obsolete. We are a different race living in different times from the people who set these rules. As long as you have a good sense of what is right. God is most gracious and understanding. He is also most forgiving. He is most certainly not petty like us mortal, getting tied up by small matters like holding up a joss stick.

Finally, we pray to God, not to the Church.

 

[cloud]

After reading all the forummer's post...
I feel thumbs up for all the forummers and their valuable opinions! ;)
As human beings, we have the right to judge what is right and what is wrong. It is true that each of us are tied up to religion but no religion teached their believers to do evil and bad stuffs.
I practice more towards free thinking...
From what I believed...
Holding a joss stick does not makes u a Buddhist....
Going to Church every week does not makes u a Christian...
It is all up to one believes...Sometimes, under certain circumstances, we did things out of what we normally do is because of RESPECT!
To my believe, there is not a sin at all!
What important is that, we are honest to ourselves to feel that we did the right thing :)

Finally, my condolence to ur granddad, satria_95

 

[satria_95]

Hey y'all, thanks for your posts. I think I forgot to clear up some things in my earlier posts. I DID follow the entire funeral proceedings accordingly, except that I didn't hold the joss sticks. As all of you have shared, joss sticks or not is just a way things are regularly done. Anyway, just to break it out to all of you, I found out a week later that my grand dad was, in fact, a CHRISTIAN! My grandma was a strong buddhist (or so it seems to me) and that's how the proceedings was done in the Buddhist way. I actually didn't feel any guilt or feel that I've done anything wrong. Just wanted to get some opinions from all y'all and am very grateful with every single post in here. :) Also, though my grand dad has passed away, my family didn't really mourn for so long as we think that he is finally set free to go where he's wants to go, or supposed to go. Thanks y'all !

Originally posted by alantan@Feb 21 2005@ 01:42
dear satria95,
I don;t really agree on the monk statement,"whatever religion you are, a good heart will always earn you good name with the Gods."

Actually, I didn't mean to say exactly that (hehe) but .... erm.... unsure how to put it in words but I'll try. It's sort of like "all religions teaches us to be good humans." I should've left the "earn you good name with God" part la. hahaha So deceiving. Basically, what the monk said is that whatever religion we are, one of the most important thing (if not THE most important one) is to have a good heart. Yeah, something like that. hehehe Sorry for the misleading text, yeah? Anyway, appreciate the verse references. Will check it out. :)

This thread has been very enlightening.

 

[lonewolf]

holding a joss stick have nothing to do with religion.

its all culture on how u pray to your own GOD...even chinese muslims in China uses joss stick to pray to GOD...


there was one situation...a guy did ask me...he is a christian...he said..her mother-in-law ask her to move the "tuah pek kong" chinese god to another table..and he ask me wether is that a sin to hold the chinese god..and he scared..

so i told him...u believe in god?...he answer yes...so just use your hand and move the tuah pek kong...its nothing wrong with it..you are just moving it..you are not praying to it...so now you tell me u are scared...hmm...then why do u belive in GOD in the first place..?... :P ...correct or not guys?