My FSAE Car Designing Diary - [T51r]

[t51r]

This is my personal design project.....would like to take up this challenge as this is my interest, and build it once i reach a certain stage if possible.

I guess this would take me few years to complete....but this is where the fun is...designing,building, setting your own car and of course drive it. This would involve powertrain, drivetrain, chassis, suspension, tyre, aero, ergonomic, electronic etc....so need to really understand them before build it. Reading lots of research and books is a must and with the power of computer to perform simulation would be significantly efficient and effective.

I've just decided the engine model to be used and obtained its CAD file with rough drawing and precise chassis pick up points. :rolleyes: A CBR600 F4i engine will be used as i got the dummy engine (i guess the engine is actually in working condition, but i never fired it up) at home, yet it is bloody cheap , is worth to invest.

Currently at a stage where suspension system design must be done before design chassis, load things to understand like wishbone, damper, spring rate, anti roll bar, hubs, tyre bla bla bla..... and their effects on vehicle dynamic. This is really disaster.

Wheel size and some tyre data must be in hand to investigate the theoretical limit of tyre in order to start design suspension layout and hubs which can hit the limit of tyre at max lateral acceleration of vehicle. Now thinking where i can get those data of popular tyres used in FSAE, i know uni got some.....some other teams also got....but don't think they will generously give me as they paid for the data.

will update soon if there is progress:wavey:

 

[t51r]

this is the CAD model of CBR600 F4i, weighs about 70kg

 

[Lean]

nice drawing you have there. Are you in engineering field too.

 

[t51r]

looking forward into engineering field....currently still looking for job...unfortunately redundancy and eco crisis occurred when i graduated.....

anyone has any idea about msia's motorsport industry? like job opportunity bla bla bla...

 

[mao_3873]

bro.. how to use the application? been wanting to learn.. but dont have the chance since not the same field..

 

[5115]

welcome to zerotohundred.com & thanks for sharing your project here with all our members!

share some pic if possible & happy motoring!

 

[t51r]

To Mao_3873
I would suggest you get started with complete tutorial, software(easily obtained from...i guess you know, otherwise pm me), then do what the tutorial does,you can also get some ideas from youtube or any related websites. Usually start with simple tutorial, then draw something simple, try to get the idea how stuff can be modeled, usually there are various of way to model a stuff, like from seremban to kl, you can take highway or old road or maybe you can go to johor first then go down to kl, so of course the fastest and simplest way is the best usually. Hope this little info can help you.

 

[t51r]

Update 1

No much progress......feeling a bit guilty. haha
I've decided to use 13 inch wheels instead of 10 inch for few reasons:
-The choices of 13inch tire are more, widely available
-More space to design upright, brake system and suspension system
-cheap 2nd hand tires

However the width and offset of wheel are still unknown......

I'm still searching a way to get the tire data i need....dont wanna pay $500 for that....although its worth that money....but i just cant afford

once i choose the right tire, width will be known, then estimate the track, wheel base, cg, weight, body roll height +++ to design suspension system, soon the offset of wheel will come out also. Lot of estimations and formulas needed to put into my own excel to predict the behavior of the car.

wondering why credit crunch and redundancy would happen at this time....been seeing lots of people losing their job recently, and i'm still unemployed , dik dak dik dak dik dak........

 

[t51r]

Update 2

Well....some info of car like weight, roll center height, center of gravity, max acceleration & deceleration, max lateral acceleration will remain unknown until the car is built and tested. These parameters must be estimated for calculations for design.

weight - 200kg(wet)
RCH - 25cm ~ 30cm
CoG - unknown
Max acceleration - lower than deceleration
Max deceleration - 1.4G
Max lateral acceleration - 1.4G

 

[DawoZedition]

Update 2

Well....some info of car like weight, roll center height, center of gravity, max acceleration & deceleration, max lateral acceleration will remain unknown until the car is built and tested. These parameters must be estimated for calculations for design.

weight - 200kg(wet)
RCH - 25cm ~ 30cm
CoG - unknown
Max acceleration - lower than deceleration
Max deceleration - 1.4G
Max lateral acceleration - 1.4G

good luck for your project. was part of my Uni SAE racing team before i quit 3 years ago. it took my team 3 years( our 3rd car) to reduce the weight of the car to 205 kgs. coz im majoring in Chemical eng. , i didnt involve too much in designing the car, but it was a great experience!

 

[siputmagic]

t51r, have u done the suspension parts?
what software did you used to run a simulation?
did you modeled the F4i engine in catia by yourself?

 

[cqloh]

wow... finally...
another malaysian taking on the FSAE challenge..
glad to see that there IS a future for motorsports careers here... congratulations for taking it on!

Firstly: the only tyres you should use are really the tyres designed specifically for FSAE.. Goodyear, Hoosier and i think recently Avon makes them... they are also generous enough to provide you with the much treasured tyre data...

i don;t know where you get the $500 figure from.. but if indeed it is that amount and you can get my tyres tested for that.. i would gladly pay..

secondly: FSAE requires you to build you car within their dimensions.. wheelbase, track and suspension travel are a given.. so you can basically start from there..
the most important item when it comes to designing the chassis is to try to aim for as high a torsional stiffness as possible.. chances are that you won;t be able to find someone here that'll be able to supply materials for a home made carbon monocoque.. space frame is the next logical way to go.. however finding chromoly steel in that small a size (again FSAE determines the size and gauge of the steel needed for the roll hoop) is virtually impossible.. (if you do know a supplier.. do let me know)

so my advice... is to go bonded aluminium ala 1980s F1...
you're aiming for a torsional stiffness of about 30-35000N/deg
that should get you started on a good car...

Thirdly: ensure that you take into consideration the vehicles suspension geometry and its effects on the dynamics ie what motion ratios to use and how it affects the vehicle in ride, roll and pitch. also try to work out the load transfer the vehicle will experience in steady state and work towards that target with your designs.

.................

i did FSAE Aus in 2004 and 2005 for Uni Tech Sydney.. its a fantastic opportunity to apply all the boring stuff you learnt at the lectures.. however.. its usually difficult because you'd have to figure out most of it yourself. lecturers were good with theory but crap when it came down to the nuts and bolts of things.

career opportunities are scarce.. but there are jobs out there.. but you'd have to go out and prove yourself. after graduating i tried applying for jobs at R3, petronas etc etc... but its a sad state.. because of how naive some people can be... in hind sight, i'm actually glad i didn't work for them..

anyway.. as the story goes.. i don;t have a full time career in motorsport.. it has become sort of a paid hobby.. you just have to get your hands dirty and prove to people (at first under your own expense) that what you do can be beneficial to the person that employs you..

i've since worked on cars in MSS, sepang drag, MME, AFOS and the macau cup...
not bad for a hobby... it can be a full time job.. but i'd just not prepared to put the amount of hours into it as i did when i was in uni.. hahah

if you need any help.. PM me..

 

[t51r]

t51r, have u done the suspension parts?
what software did you used to run a simulation?
did you modeled the F4i engine in catia by yourself?

Yeah, I use Catia V5. I should have modeled the engine, however there are CAD file of that engine out there, so I don't want to waste time to model it.

good luck for your project. was part of my Uni SAE racing team before i quit 3 years ago. it took my team 3 years( our 3rd car) to reduce the weight of the car to 205 kgs. coz im majoring in Chemical eng. , i didnt involve too much in designing the car, but it was a great experience!

205kg...is it without driver and fluid? I suspect i underestimate the weight of car(200kg), anyway, i will make a spreadsheet and estimate the weight of all the parts on the car and add it up.

wow... finally...

another malaysian taking on the FSAE challenge..
glad to see that there IS a future for motorsports careers here... congratulations for taking it on!

Firstly: the only tyres you should use are really the tyres designed specifically for FSAE.. Goodyear, Hoosier and i think recently Avon makes them... they are also generous enough to provide you with the much treasured tyre data...

i don;t know where you get the $500 figure from.. but if indeed it is that amount and you can get my tyres tested for that.. i would gladly pay..

secondly: FSAE requires you to build you car within their dimensions.. wheelbase, track and suspension travel are a given.. so you can basically start from there..
the most important item when it comes to designing the chassis is to try to aim for as high a torsional stiffness as possible.. chances are that you won;t be able to find someone here that'll be able to supply materials for a home made carbon monocoque.. space frame is the next logical way to go.. however finding chromoly steel in that small a size (again FSAE determines the size and gauge of the steel needed for the roll hoop) is virtually impossible.. (if you do know a supplier.. do let me know)

so my advice... is to go bonded aluminium ala 1980s F1...
you're aiming for a torsional stiffness of about 30-35000N/deg
that should get you started on a good car...

Thirdly: ensure that you take into consideration the vehicles suspension geometry and its effects on the dynamics ie what motion ratios to use and how it affects the vehicle in ride, roll and pitch. also try to work out the load transfer the vehicle will experience in steady state and work towards that target with your designs.

.................

i did FSAE Aus in 2004 and 2005 for Uni Tech Sydney.. its a fantastic opportunity to apply all the boring stuff you learnt at the lectures.. however.. its usually difficult because you'd have to figure out most of it yourself. lecturers were good with theory but crap when it came down to the nuts and bolts of things.

career opportunities are scarce.. but there are jobs out there.. but you'd have to go out and prove yourself. after graduating i tried applying for jobs at R3, petronas etc etc... but its a sad state.. because of how naive some people can be... in hind sight, i'm actually glad i didn't work for them..

anyway.. as the story goes.. i don;t have a full time career in motorsport.. it has become sort of a paid hobby.. you just have to get your hands dirty and prove to people (at first under your own expense) that what you do can be beneficial to the person that employs you..

i've since worked on cars in MSS, sepang drag, MME, AFOS and the macau cup...
not bad for a hobby... it can be a full time job.. but i'd just not prepared to put the amount of hours into it as i did when i was in uni.. hahah

if you need any help.. PM me..

I will refer to tire data from TTC (tire test consortium) tru my fren who is still studying in uni, they have got most of the FSAE tire data from goodyear, avon, hoosier and continental. Actually TTC rented the facility to test those tires at a cost of $20000 a day and they are voluntary organization. They've already done 3 times of tires testing in few years time, so that means they have raised $60000 from universities. Although the tire is tested on a clean flat belt which cannot fully represent the actual road condition, the data is still very valuable and worth the money.

My idea is to make a user friendly, low maintenance, low cost, yet a fun car. So i will follow space frame route. Regarding the material availability , i will try to figure out.

What i'm waiting is tire data from my friend, then decide the best tire to be used. Once tire and wheel are chosen, next would be suspension configuration, geometry together with vehicle dynamic, steering system, upright, braking system, diff, driveshaft bla bla bla......and chasis is modeled accordingly to adapt those parts. My desirable suspension configuration is unequal, non parallel double wishbone with pushrod system (inboard shock ) + anti roll bar front and rear. Third element might be developed in future, so i will leave some room for that.

Im so happy actually after seeing there are people is interested and working in motorsport industry. Thanks everyone.

 

[cqloh]

i don;t understand... you said at first it was $500.. now its $20000... per day...
which is which? as i said.. those companies freely distribute that information for FSAE customers.. so if your friend is charging $500 for it... i'd think twice about being buddies with him..

after working in the industry, i finally realised that much of the data can be obtained through datalogging... if you approach silverstone, michelin or yokohama at sepang and ask for tyre data.. they'd look at you and laugh... there's no way the tyre manufaturers will devulge that information unless you were one of their largest customers.. MSS accounts for close to nothing...
the next best thing is to datalog everything and work backwards.

unequal length, non parallel wishbones are common place in FSAE and most race vehicles.. just makes sure you know why you are using it and not because "everyone else is using it.. so i'm going to use it'... FSAE judges don;t like the monkey see monkey do attitude..
the best would be to attempt to solve issues that most race cars face in a unique manner.. that scores the most points with them.. because of the nature of FSAE... you're pretty much allowed to explore those boundaries without regulations getting in the way... so in other words.. you really should look up the history book and find out what technologies were banned from racing and develop them....

the Uni of Melbourne team used banned technology from the 70s.. attatching all their aero devices to the uprights.. hence you're adding downforce to the unsprung mass of the vehicle.. leaving the chassis to move naturally in roll, ride and pitch..

UWA used the most ingenious way to damp the vehicle in roll..

RMIT developed a resin that enables their carbon monocoque to cure under atmospheric pressure and in room temperature..

again.. the possibilities are endless.. you just have to be smart about it.. thats what makes FSAE so interesting

Bump:

some eye candy to get the juices flowing

 

[renxun]

interesting sharing and i enjoy reading everybits of it... but do you mind sharing wat does FSAE actually refers to in long form? so that i can get a rough idea on what it is and what is the purpose..

 

[cqloh]

FSAE = Formula SAE (society of automotive engineers)
which is conducted and judged by SAE senior members (akin to FIA... infact alot of them are FIA officials). the competition is open to all universities and can only be run and raced by students with minimal influence from lecturers.

basically, the idea is a scenario to build a vehicle meant for the weekend racer or hillclimber.
hence the competition has two parts.. a static and a dynamic event.. both accounting for the same amount of points..

static events include a cost report, marketing and business proposal and a final presentation of the vehicle in business and engineering terms.. the judges are usually the design engineers for Mitsubishi, ford and holden..

the dynamic events are the ones that require you to suit up and race... theres an acceleration, slalom, figure 8 event on the first day... the second day you race in an endurance and fuel economy event.

the rules are simple.. wheelbase and track are fixed.. dimensions of the vehicle are fixed.. engine is restricted to 660cc with a 20mm restrictor.. apart from safety regulations.. its a free for all..
you can go as crazy or as simple as you like...

turbo, supercharge (except nitrous) is allowed..active suspension.. downforce generators....CVTs....electronic diff..traction control.. all allowed

 

[xtremeleo]

i was one of d advisor of FSAE project for my college, we had planned to use a cc downgraded mira I4 engine equipped wit a supercharger. high compression pistons for good low end torque, tuned wit microtech to perfection. but alas, sponsorship fell short and the project was put on hold.
if u want, maybe i can ask my team to help u building the car up

i see u have some good idea in mind, maybe we can discuss further on dat. call me at 0163571811 if u r interested

anyhow, u have a very good project here. i wud luv to see it materialized and get a placing on the pod, UTP entered dis event sum time ago and got a not-so-good result wit their car(s?). anybody know about dis?

 

[cqloh]

yeah they competed in 05...

i don;t think they had a clue what was going on...
they didn;t get the car through scrutineering... i think it had to do with the way they used dodgy bolts on their suspension as well as not being able to get the car started for the brake and decibel test...

good effort... but with any sort of operation that you have to go overseas in... its always a learning exercise. i don't think they managed to get there in 06..

a mira engine? gosh... that weights like a 120kg with box...

anyway... some details of the UTS 2005 car you see below..

chromemoly space frame with semi stressed engine..
race weight : 240 kilos plus driver full tank petrol and liquids
yamaha r6 engine running sequential injection Motec M800, M&W CDI
custom manifold and extractors, exhaust
110hp@wheels through 20mm restrictor and BP 97 pump gas
0-100 in 3.2 seconds
max lateral G is 1.6 with Avon slicks

that year we managed 12th place out of 30 entries..
an excellent achievement considering we had 15k AUD to build the car..
UWA that won that year had 100K...

but that aside.. most of the guys that build these cars end up with motorsports jobs...
the suspension guy on my team now works for Williams F1..
the guys on the winning teams are in F1, F3, WRC and V8 supercar..
so the rewards are well worth it..

 

[siputmagic]

extremeleo, what the name of your college?

cq, your team car very lightweight..240kg with driver...
do you know what the average weight of the car that competed?
do you think it ok if i use 280kg with driver in calculation? (actually i have used it)..
as far as i know, UTP team never run in dynamics event right? some people told me that their car cannot start...

cq,will send u the file later...

 

[cqloh]

280kg will be way too heavy...
our car was considered heavy at 240...

UWA was about 200kg.. i think they ran a kawasaki zx6R.. they also had a carbon monocoque..
RMIT tipped the scales at 175kg that year with driver... super lightweight
they used a husqvarna 450 single cylinder engine which weighed 45kg..

our R6 almost doubled that at 80kg..
so 280 will be way too heavy... i don;t think you could build a car that heavy.. unless of course you intend to follow our local roll cage builders and use steam pipe..
our chassis that year weighed 30kg painted.. so that could be a target you should aim for..
the upright weigh about 1.5-2kg each.. so aim for an unsprung mass of about 9kg..
please don;t use any brakes that are used on cars as they are way too heavy.. we used a set of willwoods that were meant for formula ford..

as i was trying to highlight.. power isn;t the theing that'll make you win.. weight is.. if you can design a car with the lightest possible weight.. you stand a very good chance of being competitive..

some unis go as far as using carbon for their wishbones, wheels, wishbone, brake discs.. their wiring for their ecu is Milspec which saves them about 2-3kilos..
so you can imagine the amount of thought and technology that goes into these vehicles..
its pretty much on par with most race cars...

yeah UTP wasn;t able to start...
so much for our taxpayers dollars going down the drain...
not that i'm raining in their parade.. with all their resources.. they should have known to pull the plug before it got into the container...
if i had a car that wasn;t going to perform.. i;d rather not go overseas..
most racers will tell you to live to fight another day...