Alternator versus Battery

[jedi]

Hello members,

I have a proton wira made in year 2000, recently the alternator was dead and the mechanic changed a recon alternator for me.
the first alternator failed after 3 months, and he gets a warranty claim for me.
second alternator failed after 1 month, again warranty claim....
i changed 4 recon alternators in 6 months and I am bit tired so I bought a new alternator brand FOCUS. I thought this should be good but it failed after 6 months, luckily the warranty was 1 year so i claimed another new FOCUS alternator.
I then found that my battery was about to die too so I bought a new Yokohama NS70 instead of NS60.

I read in some articles saying that alternator shall produce 13.8 to 14.2V of power, when I measure mine, it produces 13.3V only.
I then start the car, turn on the aircond+radio+headlamp, and unplug the negative terminal of the battery... engine continues to run without dying...

I am wondering the alternator produces 13.3V instead of 13.8-14.2 is it because of the oversized NS70 ?
sometimes my digital clock seems to be a bit dim, sometimes it will come back bright enough...

Anyone has any clue ? Maybe the 2nd new Focus alternator also problem ?

 

[gunnerzz]

Actually,there is almost no such thing as new alternator from spare part shop.almost 90% are recon or rebuilt.
if not mistaken,wira original alternator is APM.not sure if its for all wira or certain year model.
I have never heard of Focus alternator,maybe just another recon company like VT.
correct me if i am wrong.

Recon part nowadays suck big time and the alternator is one example.
Dont worry abt your battery,if its original then its fine.
What u can do is fond a 2nd hand alternator at chop shop,nowadays its 10 times better than reco part.

on the clock,most old wira have the problem.its the clock itself.
i do suggest u to install grounding cable to imrpove the voltage stability of the electrical system.

 

[stupidcar]

Wira alternator Izso has experience. He uprated it since he has ICE also.
Do check if you have any voltage leaks, grounding ok or not...

 

[jedi]

Actually,there is almost no such thing as new alternator from spare part shop.almost 90% are recon or rebuilt.
if not mistaken,wira original alternator is APM.not sure if its for all wira or certain year model.
I have never heard of Focus alternator,maybe just another recon company like VT.
correct me if i am wrong.

Recon part nowadays suck big time and the alternator is one example.
Dont worry abt your battery,if its original then its fine.
What u can do is fond a 2nd hand alternator at chop shop,nowadays its 10 times better than reco part.

on the clock,most old wira have the problem.its the clock itself.
i do suggest u to install grounding cable to imrpove the voltage stability of the electrical system.

Thanks mate, I thought of 2nd hand from chop shop / kedai potong but i am worried what if the car that sent to chop shop actually using recon parts too ?

now i measure the voltage every day, to make sure the alternator pumps out > 13.3V...

---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 11:42 AM ----------

Wira alternator Izso has experience. He uprated it since he has ICE also.
Do check if you have any voltage leaks, grounding ok or not...

I am just wondering what will happen if original alternator but with NS70 oversized battery

it's something like water pressure, normal hose + normal tank = normal water pressure
but now normal hose + big tank = low water pressure ?

That's why if i put in NS60 battery i would get 14.2V but now i get 13.3V due to the NS70 ? just my guessing lah :)

 

[twistedichc]

Thanks mate, I thought of 2nd hand from chop shop / kedai potong but i am worried what if the car that sent to chop shop actually using recon parts too ?

now i measure the voltage every day, to make sure the alternator pumps out > 13.3V...

---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 11:42 AM ----------



I am just wondering what will happen if original alternator but with NS70 oversized battery

it's something like water pressure, normal hose + normal tank = normal water pressure
but now normal hose + big tank = low water pressure ?

That's why if i put in NS60 battery i would get 14.2V but now i get 13.3V due to the NS70 ? just my guessing lah :)

my 660 (1996) is using NS60 (instead of usuall NS40) + chop shop stock alternator, coz of ICE the batt can last around 1.5 years & now it's the 2nd batt & almost a year edi but still no prob. when you get your reading, the engine is idle at what r.p.m?? & really wit headlamp on & -ve is not connected, u'r engine is still running.??. as far as I know wit headlamp is on the engine will die off coz the lamp edi consume most of the wattage produced & cut the support for the spark plug.

 

[stupidcar]

I am just wondering what will happen if original alternator but with NS70 oversized battery

it's something like water pressure, normal hose + normal tank = normal water pressure
but now normal hose + big tank = low water pressure ?

That's why if i put in NS60 battery i would get 14.2V but now i get 13.3V due to the NS70 ? just my guessing lah :)

Oh forgot to say.
No, it won't be a problem. Its just a bigger capacity.
Takes longer to fully charge but its the same.

 

[ken yeang]

another way to squeeze more charging-juice out of an alternator is change to a smaller pulley....provide the engine rpm is constant....

One reason why alternator kong faster is heat build-up in the engine bay. Heat is the biggest culprit in shortening the life of components in the engine bay....

 

[jedi]

my 660 (1996) is using NS60 (instead of usuall NS40) + chop shop stock alternator, coz of ICE the batt can last around 1.5 years & now it's the 2nd batt & almost a year edi but still no prob. when you get your reading, the engine is idle at what r.p.m?? & really wit headlamp on & -ve is not connected, u'r engine is still running.??. as far as I know wit headlamp is on the engine will die off coz the lamp edi consume most of the wattage produced & cut the support for the spark plug.

yes, I turn on the radio and headlamp then unplug the negative terminal.
the engine still running

 

[gunnerzz]

Thanks mate, I thought of 2nd hand from chop shop / kedai potong but i am worried what if the car that sent to chop shop actually using recon parts too ?

now i measure the voltage every day, to make sure the alternator pumps out > 13.3V...

---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 11:42 AM ----------



I am just wondering what will happen if original alternator but with NS70 oversized battery

it's something like water pressure, normal hose + normal tank = normal water pressure
but now normal hose + big tank = low water pressure ?

That's why if i put in NS60 battery i would get 14.2V but now i get 13.3V due to the NS70 ? just my guessing lah :)

Most of the time the alternator at chop shop are originsl unit.
hard to tell the different but its possible.recon part are very2 clean buy will got chip and scratch on the body and sign that it has been opened.

i have a faulty recon alternator for a pajerk at home.very2 shiny but can only be used for a month.VT company recon.want to rebuild the ori mitsubishi alternator but dont have the time.

 

[vr2turbo]

I then found that my battery was about to die too so I bought a new Yokohama NS70 instead of NS60.

I read in some articles saying that alternator shall produce 13.8 to 14.2V of power, when I measure mine, it produces 13.3V only.
I then start the car, turn on the aircond+radio+headlamp, and unplug the negative terminal of the battery... engine continues to run without dying...

I am wondering the alternator produces 13.3V instead of 13.8-14.2 is it because of the oversized NS70 ?
sometimes my digital clock seems to be a bit dim, sometimes it will come back bright enough...

Anyone has any clue ? Maybe the 2nd new Focus alternator also problem ?

Bro. if you have not started your car, the measurement of voltage is from your battery. 13.3v from battery is high, should be 12.6v only.
You should test the voltage after you start the car and that is your alternator voltage and should be around + or -14v.
If you remove any battery terminal + or - after you start the car, the car now runs on the alternator. In fact, after you have started the car the alternator takes over and at the same time charge up the battery for your next crank to start the car.
If the engine dies off when you remove the battery terminal, means you have dead alternator....

As for the clock, when you switch on the car lights it will dim, you off the lights it will brighten up....

Bigger NS70 battery can be used. As bro. SC mentioned just take longer to fully charge up to full....

 

[twistedichc]

Bro. if you have not started your car, the measurement of voltage is from your battery. 13.3v from battery is high, should be 12.6v only.
You should test the voltage after you start the car and that is your alternator voltage and should be around + or -14v.
If you remove any battery terminal + or - after you start the car, the car now runs on the alternator. In fact, after you have started the car the alternator takes over and at the same time charge up the battery for your next crank to start the car.
If the engine dies off when you remove the battery terminal, means you have dead alternator....

As for the clock, when you switch on the car lights it will dim, you off the lights it will brighten up....

Bigger NS70 battery can be used. As bro. SC mentioned just take longer to fully charge up to full....

so in my case if I turn on the headlamp while the +ve terminal is not connected, means that by any chance that my alternator goin to die soon

 

[jedi]

so in my case if I turn on the headlamp while the +ve terminal is not connected, means that by any chance that my alternator goin to die soon

Doesn't mean your alternator is dying, it could be pumping out insufficient power or maybe due to the old wire... maybe your alternator pumps out 13.8V but when it reaches the -ve terminal you have 12.4V left. so if you turn on the headlamp, 12.4V might be insufficient then engine die off

---------- Post added at 04:25 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 04:21 PM ----------

Bro. if you have not started your car, the measurement of voltage is from your battery. 13.3v from battery is high, should be 12.6v only.
You should test the voltage after you start the car and that is your alternator voltage and should be around + or -14v.
If you remove any battery terminal + or - after you start the car, the car now runs on the alternator. In fact, after you have started the car the alternator takes over and at the same time charge up the battery for your next crank to start the car.
If the engine dies off when you remove the battery terminal, means you have dead alternator....

As for the clock, when you switch on the car lights it will dim, you off the lights it will brighten up....

Bigger NS70 battery can be used. As bro. SC mentioned just take longer to fully charge up to full....

I think I did not describe it clearly.

When my engine is off, i measured the battery, it's 12.8V,
Then I start the engine & measure, it's 13.3V.
Then I turn on the headlamp + radio and measure, it's 13.09V
Then I unplug the -ve terminal while the engine is still running, the engine WON'T die off, still running... headlamp & radio still operating like normal

As I know, alternator shall produce 13.8V-14.2V, but mine when I measure, it's between 13.09V-13.3V... that's why I am asking is it due to the oversized NS70 battery

 

[slipar]

Doesn't mean your alternator is dying, it could be pumping out insufficient power or maybe due to the old wire... maybe your alternator pumps out 13.8V but when it reaches the -ve terminal you have 12.4V left. so if you turn on the headlamp, 12.4V might be insufficient then engine die off

---------- Post added at 04:25 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 04:21 PM ----------



I think I did not describe it clearly.

When my engine is off, i measured the battery, it's 12.8V,
Then I start the engine & measure, it's 13.3V.
Then I turn on the headlamp + radio and measure, it's 13.09V
Then I unplug the -ve terminal while the engine is still running, the engine WON'T die off, still running... headlamp & radio still operating like normal

As I know, alternator shall produce 13.8V-14.2V, but mine when I measure, it's between 13.09V-13.3V... that's why I am asking is it due to the oversized NS70 battery

im using ns70 also..just change about 2 weeks ago..before this also ns70..so dont really know diff between ns60..
so here my answer according to my car only..
1- When my engine is off, i measured the battery, it's 12.8V,
- yes this is normal volt..got circuit load..if disconnect terminal volt diff..last time my batt die on me the volt only 11.3V..could not crank anymore..

2- Then I start the engine & measure, it's 13.3V.
- yes this is normal also..like sf said take time to charge bigger batt..the volt just hover around 13~13.6V..

3- Then I turn on the headlamp + radio and measure, it's 13.09V
- for sure volt drop..headlight bulb got big watt..load is increase here..

4- Then I unplug the -ve terminal while the engine is still running, the engine WON'T die off, still running... headlamp & radio still operating like normal
- yes its going to operate like normal..alternator doing its job now..i also changing batt without turn off engine..to avoid alarm turn on..

 

[vr2turbo]

so in my case if I turn on the headlamp while the +ve terminal is not connected, means that by any chance that my alternator goin to die soon

Probably the ampere from the alternator not enough to support your headlights and engine at the same time.

---------- Post added at 07:03 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 07:01 PM ----------

Doesn't mean your alternator is dying, it could be pumping out insufficient power or maybe due to the old wire... maybe your alternator pumps out 13.8V but when it reaches the -ve terminal you have 12.4V left. so if you turn on the headlamp, 12.4V might be insufficient then engine die off

---------- Post added at 04:25 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 04:21 PM ----------



I think I did not describe it clearly.

When my engine is off, i measured the battery, it's 12.8V,
Then I start the engine & measure, it's 13.3V.
Then I turn on the headlamp + radio and measure, it's 13.09V
Then I unplug the -ve terminal while the engine is still running, the engine WON'T die off, still running... headlamp & radio still operating like normal

As I know, alternator shall produce 13.8V-14.2V, but mine when I measure, it's between 13.09V-13.3V... that's why I am asking is it due to the oversized NS70 battery

Then it is normal. Bigger battery only takes longer to charge up. But once charged up, the system will be back to normal....

---------- Post added at 07:13 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 07:03 PM ----------

im using ns70 also..just change about 2 weeks ago..before this also ns70..so dont really know diff between ns60..

4- Then I unplug the -ve terminal while the engine is still running, the engine WON'T die off, still running... headlamp & radio still operating like normal
- yes its going to operate like normal..alternator doing its job now..i also changing batt without turn off engine..to avoid alarm turn on..

NS60 is smaller in size and capacity is 45AH. NS70 is 65AH.

Don't do too often. Removing the battery terminal when engine is running can send electrical spikes to your ECU and fry it up...Some reading here.....

Your battery does more than just provide electricity. It also shorts AC, spikes and transients to ground. Removing the battery from the circuit allows those spikes and transients to travel around, endangering every semiconductor circuit in your car. The ECU, the speed sensitive steering, the memory seat adjustments, the cruise control, and even the car's stereo.

Even if your computers and stereo remain intact, in a great many cases removing the battery burns out the diodes in the alternator, necessitating a new alternator. If disconnecting the battery interferes with the voltage regulator's control voltage input, it's possible for the alternator voltage to go way over the top (I've heard some say hundreds of volts), frying everything.

Even the initial premise was wrong. If you disconnect the battery and the car conks out, you don't know if it conked out due to insufficient alternator current, or whether the resulting transients caused your ECU (the car's computer, which controls fuel mixture, timing, and much more) to spit out bad data, shutting down the car.

Nobody should EVER run your engine without a battery.

 

[slipar]

NS60 is smaller in size and capacity is 45AH. NS70 is 65AH.

Don't do too often. Removing the battery terminal when engine is running can send electrical spikes to your ECU and fry it up...Some reading here.....

Your battery does more than just provide electricity. It also shorts AC, spikes and transients to ground. Removing the battery from the circuit allows those spikes and transients to travel around, endangering every semiconductor circuit in your car. The ECU, the speed sensitive steering, the memory seat adjustments, the cruise control, and even the car's stereo.

Even if your computers and stereo remain intact, in a great many cases removing the battery burns out the diodes in the alternator, necessitating a new alternator. If disconnecting the battery interferes with the voltage regulator's control voltage input, it's possible for the alternator voltage to go way over the top (I've heard some say hundreds of volts), frying everything.

Even the initial premise was wrong. If you disconnect the battery and the car conks out, you don't know if it conked out due to insufficient alternator current, or whether the resulting transients caused your ECU (the car's computer, which controls fuel mixture, timing, and much more) to spit out bad data, shutting down the car.

Nobody should EVER run your engine without a battery.

just to change batt only..not more than just 30sec..hehe..good info btw bro vr2

 

[vr2turbo]

just to change batt only..not more than just 30sec..hehe..good info btw bro vr2

Yup, nothing wrong ok, but if spike too high more costly to repair.....

 

[Izso]

Don't do too often. Removing the battery terminal when engine is running can send electrical spikes to your ECU and fry it up...Some reading here.....

Your battery does more than just provide electricity. It also shorts AC, spikes and transients to ground. Removing the battery from the circuit allows those spikes and transients to travel around, endangering every semiconductor circuit in your car. The ECU, the speed sensitive steering, the memory seat adjustments, the cruise control, and even the car's stereo.

Even if your computers and stereo remain intact, in a great many cases removing the battery burns out the diodes in the alternator, necessitating a new alternator. If disconnecting the battery interferes with the voltage regulator's control voltage input, it's possible for the alternator voltage to go way over the top (I've heard some say hundreds of volts), frying everything.

Even the initial premise was wrong. If you disconnect the battery and the car conks out, you don't know if it conked out due to insufficient alternator current, or whether the resulting transients caused your ECU (the car's computer, which controls fuel mixture, timing, and much more) to spit out bad data, shutting down the car.

Nobody should EVER run your engine without a battery.

It's not that dramatic la. ECUs come with built in spike resistance to some degree. But you're right about the battery acting as a capacitor though. But it's a good way to test whether the alternator is working or not. In my opinion there's 2 main things that'll affect 'transients' to give out bad data. Insufficient current/voltage and lack of/poor grounding.


Jedi : I used to use a NS70 battery and a 90A alternator. The stock 70A alternator lasted for about 5 years before it gave up but only because the carbon inside it was completely worn out. My ICE power requirements are quite high which is why I needed a bigger current battery and alternator. You need to find a good alternator (recon or otherwise) and make sure your car is properly grounded. My guess is your car has been in some accident before and accident-cars tend to have bad grounding which is further compounded by the age of the car and probably worn out original grounding leads.

Imho recon alternators can't all be that bad so what I suggest you do :

- Get an aftermarket grounding kit installed and if you have one already make sure you didn't connect it in a loop which would short circuit your alternator or whatever. Dimming headlights, dashboard lights and all that is usually because of bad or worn out grounding. All cars come with stock grounding which is why you'll never see a new car with a GK having any improvements. An old car however will benefit from a GK since time will wear out everything.

- I had a aftermarket VS as well, this thing seemed to extend the life of my batteries, the batteries I use last minimally 2 years and I use dry-cell batteries.

Amongst all the electrical components in your car, the alternator is the highest current thing there and if that is breaking down all the time, something is causing it break down faster than it should. Either bad recon parts (which is rare) or short circuiting somewhere or bad grounding.

Oh what's more I had a direct charging cable from the alternator to the battery too. Faster charge to the battery so that gave me more punchier bass. If my electrical system failed a lot of things would have fried but it didn't.

 

[jedi]

im using ns70 also..just change about 2 weeks ago..before this also ns70..so dont really know diff between ns60..
so here my answer according to my car only..
1- When my engine is off, i measured the battery, it's 12.8V,
- yes this is normal volt..got circuit load..if disconnect terminal volt diff..last time my batt die on me the volt only 11.3V..could not crank anymore..

2- Then I start the engine & measure, it's 13.3V.
- yes this is normal also..like sf said take time to charge bigger batt..the volt just hover around 13~13.6V..

3- Then I turn on the headlamp + radio and measure, it's 13.09V
- for sure volt drop..headlight bulb got big watt..load is increase here..

4- Then I unplug the -ve terminal while the engine is still running, the engine WON'T die off, still running... headlamp & radio still operating like normal
- yes its going to operate like normal..alternator doing its job now..i also changing batt without turn off engine..to avoid alarm turn on..

by looking at your numbers, I think we are having the same reading.
So i think the alternator is good ?
What i think lah, as long as i remove with -ve terminal with headlamp + radio ALL ON and the engine won't die, that means the alternator is producing enough juice... am i right ?

 

[Izso]

Yes. You are probably right.

 

[Kopi]

not healthy if at any point of the car is driven (proton), the volt drops below 13.5v. Minimum is 13.5v when aircond (at full blast), headlamp (high beam), foglights, room lamp, window heater, wipers & radio turned on (even for a 15yrs old Proton). Most proton circuit voltage when every electrical switch is turned on will display 13.5-13.6v. Only occasionally for cars with big ICE, or 100/120w spotlights using 75/90A alternator & 70A battery shows 13.3-13.5. On 100A alternator + 70A batt it should still show 13.6v. but on initial startup of the day, it should make 14.1-14.4v with 60A & 70A battery, regardless of dry or wet cell, and what amp of alternator.

Many possibilites that may have led your car doing 13.3v and its not something that can be advised easily through writings, but it is something that can be confirmed that your car's electrical system is not well and need to be sort out immediately. However, do use a multimeter first (tap to battery while engine's running) to get the voltage reading correctly. Some voltmeter may show shyte reading... like those fake Apexi pen timer or... fake brand voltmeter.