Hydraulic Lifters for 4G93T

[xtremeleo]

so, it was an oil pressure issue den tony? nice..

 

[speed2horizon]

the spring i'm talking about is part of the relief valve assembly located inside the oil pump. try and google a blueprint of ur oil pump assembly and you will see it there. please also google the pictorial assembly of a mitsu lifter to give you an idea of what you're dealing with. once you see the lifters, you'll note that its almost impossible for that design to fail. once you see the relief valve assembly on the oil pump, you'll also note how the spring inside there can get worn over time. bring both pictures to ur foreman to let him have a look before disassembly.

my experience tells me that changing the oil viscosity will not help on the lifters problem. thicker oil will give you higher psi reading...again, this won't help. new oil (irrespective of viscosity) will temporarily quiten down the lifters mainly because its not been contaminated yet. run the engine for the next 2000km and lifters will again tik (will happen 99% of the time). NOTE: If the lifters are not broken, then the problem is starvation of oil.

SOLUTION: how i solved my problem on a mazda engine (both mazda and mitsu engine share the same nightmare of hydraulic lash adjusters/lifters) was to get my VERY close buddy mechanic to open up my oil pump, thereafter to open up my relief valve assembly, thereafter to add washers (very small addition of washer thickness) on the spring assembly to increase the tension of the spring rate. the washers act to compress the spring, leading to higher tension rate, hence relief valve will not open so easily to let engine oil flow down to oil pan. this will retain more engine oil in the block, flooding the lifters with oil, and no more tik tik tik.

WARNING: DO NOT over add the number of thickness of washers (or the number of additional washers) as you dont want excessive pressure built-up on the engine block.

REMEMBER that want you're dealing with is a problem with your relief valve spring rate which has got softer through wear and tear, and what you're doing is increasing the spring rate only VERY SLIGHTLY by adding washers (hence compressing the spring to make it harder). i only added 2 thin washers on my spring assembly.

For me, the problem was solved by doing the above. this is in consideration of years of experimenting with types of oil, changing engine block, changing lifters, doing carbon clean-up all to no avai....

I must say that not make mechanics will do this for you, mainly because they won't earn much (only labour involved, with maybe 2 thin washers as parts). i strongly recommend that you get the picture of your 4G93T oil pump to your mechanic to let him see clearly what needs to be disassembled.

good luck, and this will solve the problem.

hi tonytony, Happy CNY/holiday... Good day to you. Sorry, I don't mean to interupt. First of all, nothing is designed to failfree, that's the fundamental of engineering designed. If so, there'll be no replacement parts to be sold in the spareparts shop.

Sorry, maybe we're just not as knowledgeable on the lifters. A few of my friends tried the MEEK's for years and it has served them well.

But if u say there's no way that the hydraulic lifter will fail, then can u pleaes tell me is the hydraulic lifters are suppose to be compressible or non compressible with finger strength when it's taken out from the engine head..?

I found some of my lifters are compressible and some are not. And it also happens to alot of others 4G93/T at my mechanics.

Sorry again. Don't mean anything negative. Just want to increase my knowledge... Thanks for sharing...

 

[kanan]

nice sharing. in case where the noise came out when the engine is cold and seldomly came out when the engine is hot, what would be the source of problem here? does it mean the oil is too thick when it's cold and getting right viscosity when it's already hot?

 

[contreasjun27]

hi tonytony, Happy CNY/holiday... Good day to you. Sorry, I don't mean to interupt. First of all, nothing is designed to failfree, that's the fundamental of engineering designed. If so, there'll be no replacement parts to be sold in the spareparts shop.

Sorry, maybe we're just not as knowledgeable on the lifters. A few of my friends tried the MEEK's for years and it has served them well.

But if u say there's no way that the hydraulic lifter will fail, then can u pleaes tell me is the hydraulic lifters are suppose to be compressible or non compressible with finger strength when it's taken out from the engine head..?

I found some of my lifters are compressible and some are not. And it also happens to alot of others 4G93/T at my mechanics.

Sorry again. Don't mean anything negative. Just want to increase my knowledge... Thanks for sharing...

what a wonderful info from you bro..
now only I realized that I'm such a noob in this area haha after seeing all the wonderful stuff from you guys!
pls share more sifu-sifu sekalian !

 

[AlucarD]

Ahh, the old shim trick!! :)

Somehow it never worked on my car before??!! Despite a modified, shimed and supposedly high flow oil pump. I also shim my lifters... Took my oil pump apart and put it back together, place the oil pressure sensor on the head and then the block to measure the psi. Had baffel plates designed for the engine and crank scrapers installed to increase pressure but them darn bullets still sing :(

But what I can tell is that the lifters do fail and low oil pressure contributes more to the noise. I have personally seen and molested collapsed lifters before and they do fail.

Maybe is the inherent design flaw of the lifters or the oil pump or maybe its just my motor becoming an old fart like me or mechanics trying to make a quick buck from me. Whatever, I personally think shims are temporary solution for mitsubishis'. Sooner or later wear and tear will get the better of it and you will need new or aftermarket lifters. Even with uprated lifters there is no guarantee that it will stay silent for years to come vis-à-vis wear-n-tear. My advise is, use good engine oil, change the oil often and take care of your car. Low budget go for the shim fix, bleed/clean the lifters and pray hope it works. But please take into consideration labour and time cost since still need to take out oil sump/pump or head assembly (valve springs, rocker etc etc). If got budget... I'll say the dirty word... go for the lifters. I think they sell them for a reason and coz there is damand for them things.

I will personally go down the lifter route when I have the time to put in those cams lying around in my room. End of day its your money and time so its only fit that you decide.

Cheers

 

[tonytony]

hi all, don't worry, this discussion is also for sharing and learning only. i'm also just sharing what i've experienced.

ok, let me try and answer some queries. lifters (aka hydraulic lash adjusters = HLA) are designed to be pumped up (i.e hardened without free play) via hydraulic pressure...in this instance, via our engine oil. this is to facilitate the profile of the cams. the HLAs hardens so that the cam profile can push down on it which it would then push down on the engine valves, opening it. the bleeding of engine oil out of the HLAs (or decompression) are designed to occur automatically when the cam profile changes its cycle (i.e when pressure is released from the cams on the HLA), and when this happens, pressure is released from the top of engine valve...closing it.

i cannot correctly predict what will happen to the characteristics of the lifters once out of the engine, because of a couple of reasons:
1. HLAs are supposed to operate at OEM spec when totally immersed in engine oil
2. HLAs are designed to operate in conjunction with the engine cam profile it was designed with. this may also includes all force and pressure surrounding the HLA and cam.
3. Like our fellow forummer, i too have had experience with different compression strengths/characteristics on my HLA when taken out of the engine. this is despite immensing the HLA in engine oil for 1 week prior to testing the HLA. from a set of 16 (16 valve engine), some was totally soft (i.e looks as though it wasn't being pumped up at all!), but some others became very hard. i even dismantled one of the HLAs and had a look at the piston, ball bearing and spring in there. and i had a good look at the inlet hole. i put the same set back on (with the exception of the one i dismantled...i took another via a spare block i had), and my engine was clacking like crazy!

Now...with the same set of lifters as above, i added washers /shims on the relief valve spring and voila....problem solved. no more tik / tap / clank / chatter...even with dirty oil! (i now run my semi engine oil up to 12k km just to test the dirty oil theory on HLAs). till today, no sound and engine runs like a well oiled precision machine :). in short, i would say that it would be very hard to determine if the lifters are in proper working condition via the finger testing method.

which leads me to the next query by another forummer, on the failure rate of lifters / HLAs. The reason i commented that it won't fail is because of the design of these lifters. all components in the lifter itself (housing, ball bearing, cap, spring) are so small that it will take the highest precision engineering tools, equipment & material to manufacture. as far as i've researched on HLAs, the only possibility for a HLA / lifter to fail is when the spring inside there snaps into 2. now considering the size of this spring (for those who had seen it), it is near impossible. to help visualize, split a piece of A4 paper into 2 and its easily done. try and split a paper which is 2/10 of a centimeter, and you got your work cut out. now imagine the piece of paper to be a high precision spring (which is also quick thick !) and so i come to conclusion that it will take a significant amount of unusual force to break the spring, and this should not occur from the normal usages of the engine. that's why its important to note if the engine has overheated prior to diagnosting the lifter problem as it may give rise to a lifter failure, resulting in ticking noise.

from my reading, the HLAs / lifters when first appeared was considered to be the biggest leap in engine design since the combustible engine was used. the smoothness. quitness and 'almost' maintenance free lifters convinced most major car manufacturers to employ the HLA / lifter over its predecessor rocker arm design to control the opening and closing of engine valves. to the forummer who commented that no parts are designed to failfree, then i must say that this is indeed an excemption. it was truly ingenious.

unfortunately, this one part came with a condition, and that is that it needed constant engine oil to operate. this was the job for the oil pump, specifically oil pump relief valve (even more specific was the spring inside the relief valve), which the designers did not pay enough attention to. yes i've also read the technical publishings by manufaturers (Mazda, Mitsu, Volve & others). most have recommended to carbon clean top engine (which i've also tried), followed by replacement of OEM oil filters and engine oil. some would recommend changing the HLA itself. Mitus has gone so far as issuing redesigned lifters with larger inlet holes. again, Mitsu's recommendation correctly highlights that the ticking noise is a result of oil starvation and the bigger inlet holes was meant to 'solve' the problem. as explained in my previous posting, this will only help temporarily as the spring inside the oil pump relief valve will get softer and softer, hence less and less oil being retained in the engine block. lifter noise will return.

to the forummer who commented on changing the oil pump to a high flow pump, that is precisely what the lifters / HLAs DO NOT want. again, lifters work when flooded with oil, on a constant basis. the high flow pumps (as used in race engines) are designed so that oil is constantly moving upward and downward on the engine block for the purpose of cleaning (via the oil filter), cooling and perhaps reduction in load forces for the engine to rev higher and faster. these pumps are suitable for race environments. unfortunately, as the spec is defined, the high flow movement of oil leaves little oil retained in the block, not so good for lifters. hence, ticking sound will still be there, in fact, it could be worse. i'm not too sure what was it that you've shimmed on the oil pump, but again i must highlight that what i've been commenting about is very specific to the oil pump relief valve spring. nothing else. to add shims on the lifters would (IMHO) not be good on the cycle of the cam as this would incorrectly open and close the engine valves and would affect timing. but then again, so would ticking lifters (contrary to what mechanics say, i find my engine timing to be so far off when ticking is evident that my car runs like crap! power is totally lost.

once you've solved the lifter noise, better yet, the oil pump relieve valve spring rate, engine power is restored. i must say, when spending money to fix, go for the cheapest option 1st...which is adding washers into the spring seat. if that don't work, replace the lifters if you must. hope this helps and i welcome any feedback by fellow forummers :)

---------- Post added at 10:23 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 09:51 PM ----------

nice sharing. in case where the noise came out when the engine is cold and seldomly came out when the engine is hot, what would be the source of problem here? does it mean the oil is too thick when it's cold and getting right viscosity when it's already hot?

bro,
in this scenario, my best guess is somehow the operating temperature of the engine and engine oil is affecting the flow characteristics of the engine oil inside the block (i.e up and down movement). it is likely that when hot i.e expansion of liquid, oil volume is increased, hence retaining more oil in the block, slowing down the flowdown of oil to oil pan, resulting in more oil for the lifters to use. that may be why lifters quieten down when at 'normal' operating temperature range.

hope it helps.

---------- Post added at 10:31 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 10:23 PM ----------

so, it was an oil pressure issue den tony? nice..

hi bro,
sorry it is not pressure that is the determining factor. of course the oil pump has to firstly be working in its normal psi readings to pump oil up to the block. more importantly, the oil must stay up in the block (i.e oil don't flow down abnormally). by flowing down abnormally, there is no oil being retained up in the engine block for lifters to operate.

hence, it is the flow which is the issue. and the flow of oil downwards back to the pan is controlled by the oil pump relief valve.

hope this clarifies.

 

[xtremeleo]

tony, iam usinga 4g9x engine also, and have had my share on dis lifters problem. the noise was unbearable, so i searched for a solution and found out dat the lifters often get blocked in the inlets, hence blocking oil from entering it and dat is the cause of the ticking.

to rectify dis problem, i used a known engine oil dat has high detergent level, to clean the carbon blockage in the lifters' inlets. dat quieten the noise, but i wasnt satisfy so i got my hands on an engine oil dat has high contain of moly, to buffer and cover sum of the wear previously done from oil starvation. now, its okie and the more i changed the oil containing moly, the quieter it becomes. it has been my 3rd oil change, and the noise is negligible but ive yet to compare the noise to urs. my engine sounds normal now, but may not have been as quiet as urs. iam gonna do the shim mod on the oil pressure valve, and will give feedback once its done. hopefully its gonna get quieter as i wont accept any 4g9x as "engine mesin jahit", lol

 

[tonytony]

tony, iam usinga 4g9x engine also, and have had my share on dis lifters problem. the noise was unbearable, so i searched for a solution and found out dat the lifters often get blocked in the inlets, hence blocking oil from entering it and dat is the cause of the ticking.

to rectify dis problem, i used a known engine oil dat has high detergent level, to clean the carbon blockage in the lifters' inlets. dat quieten the noise, but i wasnt satisfy so i got my hands on an engine oil dat has high contain of moly, to buffer and cover sum of the wear previously done from oil starvation. now, its okie and the more i changed the oil containing moly, the quieter it becomes. it has been my 3rd oil change, and the noise is negligible but ive yet to compare the noise to urs. my engine sounds normal now, but may not have been as quiet as urs. iam gonna do the shim mod on the oil pressure valve, and will give feedback once its done. hopefully its gonna get quieter as i wont accept any 4g9x as "engine mesin jahit", lol

bro, this method is quite widespread recommended on the internet, using high detergent oil to clean the engine. however, i must say that its not going to be very effective. i too have tried it before. firstly, carbon built-up inside the engine takes quite a bit more than oil to clean/get rid. secondly, the clearances within the lifters are so tiny that gunk is not likely to be built-up there. even if it did, it would take a significant amount of pressure to wash away (needing like a high powered jet spraying directly into the inlet hole). what is more likely is the type of oil you're using contains properties which somehow allows it (oil) to stay up in the engine block longer, hence giving ur lifters more oil to use.
to recap, my lifters are now not noisy at all. its operating at OEM spec and the only tap noise i hear is from my injectors spraying fuel. i reiterate that lifters need oil to operate. when it tiks, then the problem is starvation of oil.

good luck bro. i'm sure once you've added washers into the oil pump relief valve spring seat you'll notice a huge difference. don't add too many washers...or it may result in excessive pressure build up. make sure you print out all diagrams of the components to your foreman...else he'll be searching in the dark for the spring.

 

[xtremeleo]

thank you so much tony for the explanation, but i dont see any pix of the oil pump relieve valve..? i do know what u mean by the relieve valve spring, but wud appreciate if there is any pix for confirmation.

gonna be happy lah if my engine can be made more quiet wit a simple mod like dat

 

[tonytony]

thank you so much tony for the explanation, but i dont see any pix of the oil pump relieve valve..? i do know what u mean by the relieve valve spring, but wud appreciate if there is any pix for confirmation.

gonna be happy lah if my engine can be made more quiet wit a simple mod like dat

sorry bro, the picture that i have was given to me in hardcopy by kemuncak (supplier for mazda parts). try googling for Mitsus. as long as your mechanic knows what he's doing...i only mention the drawing coz we don't want any mistakes in opening up the oil pump.

 

[AlucarD]

xtremeleo, here's the pic let me know if this works on your car?? :)

 

[xtremeleo]

thanx a million alucard, will post it here. if i can find it next time ler, lol

 

[tonytony]

Good luck with your fix!

 

[zamiex]

lets say i want to add shim at my 4g9X engine.. do i need to disassemble the whole oil pump or just can remove it without taking the oilpump off?

 

[AlucarD]

No need to disassemble the oil pump but must remove the oil pan, locate the oil pump and valve, push the spring and insert the shims.

 

[speed2horizon]

No need to disassemble the oil pump but must remove the oil pan, locate the oil pump and valve, push the spring and insert the shims.

lets say i want to add shim at my 4g9X engine.. do i need to disassemble the whole oil pump or just can remove it without taking the oilpump off?

Err... Shims can be added to 2 location.

1) under the lifters

2) on the valve spring on the oil pump.

Please clarify ur statement

 

[zamiex]

No need to disassemble the oil pump but must remove the oil pan, locate the oil pump and valve, push the spring and insert the shims.

oo... like that... i just only open up the oil sump to replaced the gasket.. will try to open up again..
should be the same right fo 93n/a and 93t.. ?

---------- Post added at 02:34 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 02:09 AM ----------

Err... Shims can be added to 2 location.

1) under the lifters

2) on the valve spring on the oil pump.

Please clarify ur statement

have any pics on how to add shims under the lifter? size and thickness? thanks

 

[speed2horizon]

oo... like that... i just only open up the oil sump to replaced the gasket.. will try to open up again..
should be the same right fo 93n/a and 93t.. ?

---------- Post added at 02:34 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 02:09 AM ----------



have any pics on how to add shims under the lifter? size and thickness? thanks

Err.... doesn't have it now... But can take it when I have the time.

But the procedure are simple.
1) Take aluminum cans from any brand of drinks. Cocacola ka, F&N ka, PEPSI ka... As long as ALUMINUM can.

2) Cut the top and base. Then open it up into a sheet form.

3) Then, open up the valve cover and remove the cams.

4) Take out the hydraulic lifter and measure the diameter of the socket aka hole aka lubang where the lifters are inserted.

5) Cut the aluminum sheet which has been prepared from aluminum can earlier according the shape and diameter of the lubang u measured. Well, in 100% of the cases I faced are in round shape. Who knows, maybe there's something I've never seen before... Kekeke...

6) Prepare 32/48 pcs of shims.

7) Put 2/3 shims into each lubang and insert back ur lifters into the lubang.

8) Place back the cams into the position and mount it.

9) Reapply the silicon glue to the valve cover gasket or better replace the valve cover gasket. BTW, I have silicon material for 4G9X and 4G6X valve cover gasket IF U want it. Selling for RM40. Sorry, not promoting product. Just IN CASE if U need them. LOLX.

10) Mount back Valve cover.

11) Start the engine. Should hear the noise for 1-2 minutes. Then the sound dissappear.

All mentioned above are purely based on personal experience and it does worked for my car. There could be alternative solutions that may serves better.

Good luck.

 

[Jibong]

need solid lifter here. how to make one? anybody selling solid lifter around?

 

[contreasjun27]

Err.... doesn't have it now... But can take it when I have the time.

But the procedure are simple.
1) Take aluminum cans from any brand of drinks. Cocacola ka, F&N ka, PEPSI ka... As long as ALUMINUM can.

2) Cut the top and base. Then open it up into a sheet form.

3) Then, open up the valve cover and remove the cams.

4) Take out the hydraulic lifter and measure the diameter of the socket aka hole aka lubang where the lifters are inserted.

5) Cut the aluminum sheet which has been prepared from aluminum can earlier according the shape and diameter of the lubang u measured. Well, in 100% of the cases I faced are in round shape. Who knows, maybe there's something I've never seen before... Kekeke...

6) Prepare 32/48 pcs of shims.

7) Put 2/3 shims into each lubang and insert back ur lifters into the lubang.

8) Place back the cams into the position and mount it.

9) Reapply the silicon glue to the valve cover gasket or better replace the valve cover gasket. BTW, I have silicon material for 4G9X and 4G6X valve cover gasket IF U want it. Selling for RM40. Sorry, not promoting product. Just IN CASE if U need them. LOLX.

10) Mount back Valve cover.

11) Start the engine. Should hear the noise for 1-2 minutes. Then the sound dissappear.

All mentioned above are purely based on personal experience and it does worked for my car. There could be alternative solutions that may serves better.

Good luck.

wah lao bro you are Fu*king good in this !!!!!!
salute lah!!!