Didint ground piggyback/ecu engine will cause rough idling?

[Thoren]

Didint ground piggyback/ecu will cause rough idling?

Originally Posted by risyia
did not ground the ECU/Piggyback properly during the installation - causing the idling to be rough - now that it is grounded, the idling is much smoother but still not as smooth as an NA engine.

Calling all sifus, out of curiosity, so far I have not heard grounding a piggyback can give better idling, flip thru instruction booklet from e-manage also cant find any instruction about grounding it.

And if it is true, which part of the piggyback body did you connect the wire? As most piggyback body are made of plastic. Share with us your experience ok? Cheers :D

 

[cipan_supercas]

1. Be sure that your wiring is done right in the first place.
2. If using E-Manage, check that the jumpers are correctly configured. So is the rotary switches.
3. Have the tuning spot on... use wideband meter to calibrate, not just a simple tweak or trial and error. Unless u have been doing this for more than 30 years of tuning but still need sophisticated tuning equipments to gain your trust. If it's good, u should have a good response and mileage from your engine. If it's not, than pray hard enough that your engine will not break apart.
It's not just the idle, but the whole range till wot.

 

[Thoren]

Thanks for the guide cipan :)

Everything so far so good for me, no complaint at all. Just saw some interesting comment form fellow zth forumers so bring it up and discuss, because if its proven grounding a piggyback unit can bring smoother idle I wil try it out too :D

 

[wreza]

I'm using e manage,also have problem with idling,sometimes it is normal,around

9++ rpm,but after a while ,sometimes it will reach untill 16++ till 18++ rpm,dunno what is the problem,pls advice

 

[cipan_supercas]

Is your throttle body OK? What about your ISC?
E-Manage doesn't control idle but mixture. Are they tuned right? I never had these problem before with my tuning. So, it's quite difficult to suggest the solutions.

 

[140dB]

ecu grounding

hi there,

most the time, stock ecu (usually clad in metal)is bolted on to car chassis effectively grounding the unit.
grounding afaik helps to shield sensitive electronics like ur ecu from electrical noise like from alternator or ignition, rf etc.

now with the case of piggybacks.
i read the manual from apexi-safc and it stressed very very much on piggyback grounding. Even gave the distance in cm accuracy on where and how ground the unit.

this says a lot oledi. interfacing 2 pcs high speed digital electronics(ecu-piggy) is not quite so straightforward...needs proper wiring technique

140dB

 

[cipan_supercas]

hi there,

most the time, stock ecu (usually clad in metal)is bolted on to car chassis effectively grounding the unit.
grounding afaik helps to shield sensitive electronics like ur ecu from electrical noise like from alternator or ignition, rf etc.

now with the case of piggybacks.
i read the manual from apexi-safc and it stressed very very much on piggyback grounding. Even gave the distance in cm accuracy on where and how ground the unit.

this says a lot oledi. interfacing 2 pcs high speed digital electronics(ecu-piggy) is not quite so straightforward...needs proper wiring technique

140dB

Are u one of the Emanage installer and understand well about Emanage before making this statement?
I think the problem above is faced when the unit is not properly installed, wired and tuned. And one more thing, maybe the existing engine is not up to par and healthy. eg: faulthy ISC, low compression etc.
If Emanage design is lack of ground points, they should have urge us the installer to do the necessary modification. Do you understand the effect of 'ground loop' on sensitive electronics cicuitry?
Emanage is not easy to set-up compared to SAFC/VAFC. It's not straight forward.
What I'm trying to say is that, most problem comprising Emanage are from the installer who don't have the knowledge to install it, not the unit itself. But these fake installer are bold enough to boost themselves as one of the best in town. I actually hate to say that many people here are 'trying' to say something bad to a product (not only Emanage) but they themselves are not using it and don't have enough information to make any statement. Enough said.
And back to the above problem, remove the Emanage, and try using without it and see whether the problem diminishes.
cheers.

 

[140dB]

Are u one of the Emanage installer and understand well about Emanage before making this statement?
I think the problem above is faced when the unit is not properly installed, wired and tuned. And one more thing, maybe the existing engine is not up to par and healthy. eg: faulthy ISC, low compression etc.
If Emanage design is lack of ground points, they should have urge us the installer to do the necessary modification. Do you understand the effect of 'ground loop' on sensitive electronics cicuitry?
Emanage is not easy to set-up compared to SAFC/VAFC. It's not straight forward.
What I'm trying to say is that, most problem comprising Emanage are from the installer who don't have the knowledge to install it, not the unit itself. But these fake installer are bold enough to boost themselves as one of the best in town. I actually hate to say that many people here are 'trying' to say something bad to a product (not only Emanage) but they themselves are not using it and don't have enough information to make any statement. Enough said.
And back to the above problem, remove the Emanage, and try using without it and see whether the problem diminishes.
cheers.

hi cipan,

no i do not install emanage for a living. i really dunno shit about emanage but I did a few modules in digital electronics while in school.....ahhh.......the better daze......

i integrate audio, video, stage lighting, extra low voltage electronics for a living.

i dunno about fake installers...only bad, good and useless.

"Do you understand the effect of 'ground loop' on sensitive electronics cicuitry?"

it fucks them up. especially on high freq digital electronics. not to mention audio frequencies up to 20kHz. happens anywhere and at any freq. gets worse when the distance of pieces of electronics to be interfaced gets larger, and/or the freq of operation get higher.......so put ur piggyback on top of ur ecu piggyback style hahaha make sure body touching each other to eliminate ground loops.

are you suggesting the problem could be caused by a ground loop?

1 thing u got a good idea, remove the piggy and see if all is ok.......elimination by common sense

btw, the safc wiring procedure had a lot to do wif the sensor signal grounding wrt the ecu and aux power grounding also wrt ecu....

140dB

 

[Thoren]

What Cipan trying to say is every ecu, piggyback having their own unique design, and therefore the application method should be different. SAFC needed to be ground as per instruction booklet but emanage on the other hand need not to be ground (just assumption because instruction booklet did not say so)

Am I getting you right Cipan? If it is, then I have 2 tuners telling me emange need not to be ground. So that has settle my querie

Cipan mentioned "ground loop", is that somesort of current like static charge which is possible to damage ecu? Just a wild guess. Can installing voltage stabilizer and ground cables such as Pivot, RMK, Aerospeed, etc etc help overcome this problem? Need your enlightenment

 

[Thoren]

on high freq digital electronics. not to mention audio frequencies up to 20kHz. happens anywhere and at any freq. gets worse when the distance of pieces of electronics to be interfaced gets larger, and/or the freq of operation get higher.......so put ur piggyback on top of ur ecu piggyback style hahaha make sure body touching each other to eliminate ground loops.

are you suggesting the problem could be caused by a ground loop?

1 thing u got a good idea, remove the piggy and see if all is ok.......elimination by common sense

140dB

LOL :D Somehow I felt I have back to uni again, but this time is electronic engineering courses. Car mod for the win, cheers

 

[140dB]

What Cipan trying to say is every ecu, piggyback having their own unique design, and therefore the application method should be different. SAFC needed to be ground as per instruction booklet but emanage on the other hand need not to be ground (just assumption because instruction booklet did not say so)

Am I getting you right Cipan? If it is, then I have 2 tuners telling me emange need not to be ground. So that has settle my querie

Cipan mentioned "ground loop", is that somesort of current like static charge which is possible to damage ecu? Just a wild guess. Can installing voltage stabilizer and ground cables such as Pivot, RMK, Aerospeed, etc etc help overcome this problem? Need your enlightenment

AFAIK,

your whole car chassis is grounded(wrt to all electronics drawing power from battery) via thick cable from battery to chassis or engine block.

ur car chassis, made of mild steel, although a good conductor has a finite resistance value from any two points measured.

most of all ur sensor is grounded at engine..

ur ecu is grounded at chassis or via cable to battery...

ur emanage is grounded via cable to battery or tap from ecu i dunno...definitely ur emanage is grounded somehow otherwise how can it power up?(safc aux power and signal ground is tap from ecu cable at spaced points)

although all of these are grounded, they do not share the same potential as there is resistance between all their grounding points...thus forming a ground loop

add to this there are usually two types of ground....power grounding for powering up fancy VFD display(in case of safc) etc and digital ground for (high speed) digital signals

so basically u need an installer who knows his shit(easy way out) look for cipan since he said he never had this problem wif his tuning

140dB

 

[Thoren]

thanks 140db

I never faced any idle problem, just a question brought up by other zth member that grounding give better idle and smoother. Since Im using emanage that is why need to find out. CHeers :D

 

[cipan_supercas]

thanks 140db

I never faced any idle problem, just a question brought up by other zth member that grounding give better idle and smoother. Since Im using emanage that is why need to find out. CHeers :D

Good to hear that you don't have such a problem... let us say that these are just a piece of tutorials and refreshment back to old days discussions.

To my opinion, adding unessential groundings will add more problem rather than solving it. (see 140dB's comment on ground loop effect on digital equipments). If the equipment works right, leave it alone cos adding unwanted grounding will trigger spurious distortions to the eletronics. In our case, Emanage electronics circuit. It may not effect the idling portion of the emanage mapping but the wot ... and may led to a disastrous results....
Unless we have equipment (oscilloscope in particular) to monitor the power supply activities, I think it's better to follow the installation procedure suggested by them and you are safe.

 

[Thoren]

Got it! :top:

Cheers!

 

[wreza]

cipan,can u check my e manage connection for me?

 

[cipan_supercas]

cipan,can u check my e manage connection for me?

What's wrong? If there's nothing wrong with it, leave it alone. Don't trouble troubles, or else trouble will troubles you... What r u unsatidfied with...?
Unless u want to retune it... that's a different story.

 

[wreza]

it's the idling problem.also thinking to upgrade the firmware .

 

[Thoren]

it's the idling problem.also thinking to upgrade the firmware .

Upgrading Emanage firmware? You mean the Gold Edition? I know it will help for better response (especially mitsu engines), but it will not do anything better for your idling problem.

Like Cipan suggested have you check into throttle body or ISC? (by the way what is ISC? lol )

 

[wreza]

yeah,what is isc though?

 

[cipan_supercas]

yeah,what is isc though?

isc = Idle Servo Controller.
If I'm not mistaken, the latest firmware for Blue Emanage is version 1.39. Flashing the Gold Emanage v1.42 will ruin your unit and can no longer be used. Be warned.
Unless u do the hardware upgrade which I can tweak for u.
Drax tuner.