Suspension VS Chasis Bars/Brace

[marv3]

Hi all sifus,

Would just like to know what you all think about the above-mentioned title?

Been hearing quite a number of debates about it.

Some say if you have good suspension (high-end brand or custom) you dont need any strut bars or brace or ARB. Then there are some who say, with bars or brace or ARB is better even thought stock suspension.

Then there are also some who said if you have a good set of suspension, putting on struts or brace or ARB is of little or no use. Some even said a with a good set of suspension, putting on a real ARB will mess up the setting or is actually no use.

So, kinda wanna know what all the sifus here think. Im sure alot of sifus here have experience on this.

Thank you very much.

 

[stupidcar]

What are u having now? Suspension mods wise.
I kept forgetting u are Almera or 408 turbo.

 

[vr2turbo]

Each items works differently, means it does what it is meant for. The main thing is to tune them right so it complement each other....

 

[marv3]

I am only having H&R stock srpings (btw SC, is a 408 Turbo...LOL...)

But anyways, this topic is not about me wanting to mod it. Just something i stumble across and just want to learn more.

Coz i spoke to ppl around. Some say improve handling but bars and some say a good suspension will do. Some say put all. So to me is like, just wanting to know, which is more important? Or should i say, have the best improvement or effects?

Some said to me, a good set of suspension (custom) will do. The bars all useless or not so much effect. Some say just get a ok suspension set up, then play with bars/brace will be good.

I even heard, if you have a good suspension set up, putting bars/brace will spoil everything.

So to me, just curious to know from all the sifus experience.

Thank you.

 

[leinnz]

suspension will degrade over the years and needs tuning or replacement.
Bars is a one time fixed and it provides greater handling with less comfort to the passengers as the ride will be bumpy in an uneven road surface.

So Conclusion, IMHO
Suspension :Comfort
Bars: Less Comfort

 

[parakey]

My personal take on the issue. So if I am incorrect on some aspects. Don't shoot me.

Both bars or coilovers (suspension is too broad a term to be used here) alone are good on their own merits. To simplify, bars may be said to be used to fine tune the suspension. Fitting customed coilovers is like modifying the suspension. One fine tunes while the other modifies.

Bars stiffens the body. A stiffer body equates to less flex. Hence more control. Ant-roll or sway bars may be applied to suspension arms to lessen body roll. Saying that, one also needs to accept that such bars also adds to the stress applied the body.

With coilovers, you can opt to ..

• Increase/lower ride height. Generally most choose to lower. This changes the roll center of the car.
  
• Increase/lower spring rates. Generally most choose to increase. Better resistance to body roll and faster rebound rate to keep your tyres firmly to the ground.
  
• Increase/lower damping rates. Yet to encounter anyone who lowers this. This affects performance and comfort level. Final decision rest with the driver as to how much comfort is to be to sacrificed for performance. This can be subjective but imho, a better damper will allow for higher spring rates.

IMHO, before doing anything to the car, best get familiar with it's handling. Decide what you find to be lacking or what you desire more. Then start from there.

If planning to get both coilovers & strut/anti-roll bar, get coilovers first. Then drive with the coilovers on for some time. Decide if you need to lessen the roll.

 

[issuzark]

suspension will degrade over the years and needs tuning or replacement.
Bars is a one time fixed and it provides greater handling with less comfort to the passengers as the ride will be bumpy in an uneven road surface.

So Conclusion, IMHO
Suspension :Comfort
Bars: Less Comfort

I actually did it the other way round. No regrets though.

 

[6UE5t]

Each items works differently, means it does what it is meant for. The main thing is to tune them right so it complement each other....

...

IMHO, before doing anything to the car, best get familiar with it's handling. Decide what you find to be lacking or what you desire more. Then start from there.

....

Totally agree with the above comments. Each have their own purpose even though some might be a bit overlapping. So decide first what you want/need to improve to suite your driving:
- Do you feel it's too soft and want to stiffen up the ride? Then you may consider changing to sport springs, firmer dampers, or coil over set, depending on how much stiffer you want and how much budget you're willing to spend.
- Do you feel it's comfort enough but want to reduce body roll? Then install ARB if have none at all, or if already have stock ARB then install thicker ARB than the stock one.
- Do you feel too much understeer or oversteer? If too much understeer then focus to stiffen up the rear more such as install thick ARB at the rear, rear strut bar, rear lower arm bars, and/or stiffer rear suspension. If oversteer too much then do the opposite.

For example like me, I'm mostly fine with the stock comfort but I just want to make it slightly firmer, so I just change to slightly firmer sport springs while still using stock dampers. Then for my car now, I want to reduce understeer, so I change the rear ARB with much thicker ones.

 

[g4i8y0t]

Chassis bars don't make your suspension 'harder' than it is. Actually, it's the opposite of that. How could that be? Well, the bars 'hold' the chassis together, make it flex less and the suspension becomes better at doing it's job. In other words, all the bumps, shocks and vibration are better absorbed by the suspension, instead of the chassis. You'll also get better control/handling since the suspension mounting points are held together firmly by the bars.

I've got better ride comfort and much better handling after installing 3-point front strut bar, rear strut bar and fender bars on my old Civic.

 

[^pomen_GTR^]

thats why after installing bars one will feels their car suspension becomes stiffer because where previously some of the road rough surface absorber by chassis...now the chassis became stiffer....all those absorbing job given back properly to suspension....


i would say a good handling upgrade still a properly tuned suspension+chassis bar+arb all together work in harmony

 

[vr2turbo]

thats why after installing bars one will feels their car suspension becomes stiffer because where previously some of the road rough surface absorber by chassis...now the chassis became stiffer....all those absorbing job given back properly to suspension....


i would say a good handling upgrade still a properly tuned suspension+chassis bar+arb all together work in harmony

Is like a balance diet, too much of one won't be good......hhahahhahaha

 

[Izso]

Aiya, decide what it is you want before you decide which is more useful to you.

And those people who argue this is better than or vice versa are idiots. If either one is useless then why do you see it in rally / race cars / track cars / offroad cars?

Everything has a purpose, whether you can fully utilize the component is another story and whether you can fully understand what setup is the better choice for what situation is another story.

Personally, on my old Wira I went for the bars route, I had almost every bar for the Wira except for the 4-pt undercarriage brace. Made a helluva difference for handling with stock Wira SE springs and Improve comfort suspension (mostly. Before that it was Monroe reflex and stock Kayabas. It changed the handling characteristics of the car, personally I found the front and rear ARBs to have the most significant effects. Front 22mm ARB make the front very stiff and minimal body-roll allowing for quicker/faster direction changes. Paired with the stock rear 16mm ARB it was very willing to turn in but understeered a bit. 19mm rear ARB made it have very little body-roll and the car became predictable and easier to power through a corner at higher speeds but still understeered a bit, but less compared to the 16mm. That was weird though, I would've expected more understeer with a firmer rear.

After all that I went for coilovers and tried 3 different types before settling with the Improve Hyperflex II HLSH. The earlier ones was the HL with stupidly hard springs 8k front 6k rear - this made driving feel like I was on rails, zero body roll and very responsive handling but I was putting way too much pressure on the tyres and I couldn't use anything less than a UHP tyre back then. Then later changed to HL from another brand with softer springs 6k front 4k rear - better but it got really floaty on the highways and floating on slopes was not fun especially when it crashes back down at speed. HLSH was the most ideal as I could have some body-roll without it losing steering response and I could flip between comfort and track mode anytime I wanted.

The alternative which I've tested on a friends car was the Koni + Eibach prokit combo on the Wira. That's not adjustable and is true to the term "suspension" instead of "coilovers". Koni has this 2-stage type of damping where the dampers get harder the more it's pushed. Meaning if you're cornering hard the absorbers get quite stiff reducing body-roll like a coilover. But if you're driving slow and steady the absorber is nice and supple. The Eibachs just lower the car just nice and aren't overly stiff like other sports springs. Price however is similar to coilovers.

 

[marv3]

Thanks for sharing your information and opinions on this matter.

I started this thread to clarify my curiosity of what i heard out there. But i more or less already know what i want to do. Just have some doubts after hearing those stuffs.

What about this? I was told, if you have a very good set of suspension (i.e match the car and driver character), then you go an put a rear ARB, it will mess up the handling. I thought ARB is meant to improve handling more??

 

[parakey]

decide what it is you want before you decide which is more useful to you.

And those people who argue this is better than or vice versa are idiots. If either one is useless then why do you see it in rally / race cars / track cars / offroad cars?

+1.

IMO, the proper route should be to modify before tweaking. I am guessing most people start out with bars before coilovers because they were relatively more cost effective.

I was told, if you have a very good set of suspension (i.e match the car and driver character), then you go an put a rear ARB, it will mess up the handling. I thought ARB is meant to improve handling more??

Which is why I mentioned earlier to get familiar with the car's handling. If the existing suspension matches the car and driver character, why 'fix' something which was already perfect to begin with? The owner must have done so without careful contemplation. It was either through hearsay from friends (other people have it. So I too must also have) OR a genuine desire to improve. If the car's existing handling was nuetral, adding the rear ARB alone without uprating the front unit may throw it out of balance.

 

[marv3]

Thanks for the info guys. Very informative. Always good to ask people who has first hand experience (i.e. like you guys).

 

[Izso]

What about this? I was told, if you have a very good set of suspension (i.e match the car and driver character), then you go an put a rear ARB, it will mess up the handling. I thought ARB is meant to improve handling more??

It doesn't 'mess' it up, it just modifies it or changes it a little. There's a difference! You can opt to mess it up by changing to Silverstone tyres! That one confirm mess.

 

[marv3]

It doesn't 'mess' it up, it just modifies it or changes it a little. There's a difference! You can opt to mess it up by changing to Silverstone tyres! That one confirm mess.

Oh well...This is just what ppl around if telling me....So i just clarify with first hand expereince sifus here....Hahahahah

 

[gunnerzz]

Just set your goal and mod accordingly.
like me,rock hard suspension is never my target.
i just want my car a bit more responsive and tied down during cornering.this means i still have comfort in my mind.
so,i just install few bars and so far it fullfil my desire....

until....i felt the rear is not that obedient so i switch to teflon bush for the anti roll bar link.yes it does the job of making the rear very responsive to the front end.and the rear becomes a bit more firmer.i like it very much...

until....my rear arb link snap for the 3rd time.i just have to change back to normal rubber bush and sacrifice the benifit of the teflon bush.

 

[peterj]

this is my personal experience... a daily driven ride.. hyundai getz 1.3 sohc.. very underpowered car.. straight lines even kancil 850 can cut me... running all stock suspension ,stock rims with ultra racing front strut bar, front lower arm bar and rear antiroll bar.. the bar actually will not make the car uncomfort... at least not the front strut and lower arm bar.. the most noticeable that will reduce comfort is the anti roll bar.. it will increase the stiffness, my case, the rear... for me still consider ok... because.. most of the time, while people cut me or tiong me at straight lines, especially perodua cars with lowered spring(not being car racist, but my area lots of this kinds of cars), after some tight corner or roundabout, the situation become either i tiong them or cut them seriously, for cars oem doesn't come with rear anti roll bar, after installation u can feel the handling enhanced dramatically... even for cars like my previous eg sr4 with rear anti roll bar, after upgrade to larger rear ultra racing antiroll bar before my larger front antiroll bar come stock, my understeer become scary fwd oversteer

 

[vr2turbo]

It doesn't 'mess' it up, it just modifies it or changes it a little. There's a difference! You can opt to mess it up by changing to Silverstone tyres! That one confirm mess.

If normal Silverstone tyres, but they do have the FTZ Sports type RR